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Tech Suits... Socialism in Swimming?

Trent Staley | Profile
April 26, 2009

This weekend I was around a lot of swimming people and as you would expect the hallway/water cooler conversation often gravitated to swim suits and their impact so far, their likely impact on the Rome World Championships and the lasting effect on our sport.

The way I see it, prior to this quantum leap in suit technology, competitive swimming existed as a free market where superior products succeeded because of the elements that were put into them. The swimmer who was best prepared mentally, physically and technically would finish victorious just as the free market believes the best designed and priced product will sell the most.

Recently though an outside influence has altered the marketplace for “swimming success”. Where once a swimmer’s endurance, core strength and flotation were earned through countless hours of dedication and hard work, technology has now supplanted those efforts. No longer are the tedious hours focusing on those elements mandatory as essentially a floor has been put in place creating a new level of equality between the haves and the have nots. In 2000 Pieter van den Hoogenband swam an amazing 47.84 to win Gold in the 100 Freestyle and from that day in Sydney until last year no one could surpass the effort. In 2008, with the new suits in use, swimmers from France, Australia, Canada, the US and Brazil all swam faster than Pieter... Sounds like socialism to me.

Sure one could say that this just means that coaches and athletes must now find other ways to differentiate themselves from their competition under this new reality. True enough, but the players didn’t get a chance to do that in Beijing and with suits still not locked in for Rome it is unlikely they will in time for World Championships either.

Last week I read a FB update from a very well known older swimmer, the update was thanking a particular suit manufacturer for helping old folks like him swim fast…

Um, what?

I don’t think it matters what level of competition we are talking about because if the suit is making the swimmer fast… then the suit is “fast” not the swimmer. Why are we so pleased with ourselves for accomplishments not of ourselves?

To revert back to my super hero theme brought up in a previous blog, I've got to think that the Batman would be pretty peeved if Ironman suits became available to the masses. All the hard work he had put in to be nimble and tough would be surpassed by some technology that gives everyone abilities that he had worked for and they did not earn. Again I will acknowledge that in time the hardest workers and the most industrious coaches will find the greatest success. Just like Batman could buy an Ironman suit and figure out how to use it better than I could, Bowman, Perisol, Hutchison and Soni will all find ways to stay at the top of the sport of swimming.

That said, it’s a shame that the great swimmers of this era were attacked by a Mouchian change to the sport. Our athletes and coaches deserved better than we gave them in 2008 and it looks like we will give them in 2009, so I hope that at the FINA Congress in Rome this summer the World will recognize our past mistakes and make a statement by voting for laissez-faire competition to once again return to swimming.

*I acknowledge my hypocrisy that by supporting a “free market” for swimming competition, I dismiss one in suit manufacturing. I’m okay with that fact.



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#86
Samuli Heino   May 10, 2009 at 8:40am
I dont know what it is but this Finnish dude Eetu Karvonen just smashed the Finnish record in the 50 breast with 27,39!! Thats just three tenths of the WR! Its so cool, he's now the ninth in the world ranking.

Yep, he broke his pb by 1,1 secs. Wearing a Jaked.
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#85
Anonymous Coward   May 9, 2009 at 10:31pm
is that a backstroke picture of you/
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#84
Anonymous Coward   May 9, 2009 at 6:53pm
i like the way cullen jones says it. when asked about the new tech suits, and whether they "swim themselves" or not, he said something along the lines of "its me who wakes up at 6 in the morning to swim, not the suits"
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#83
David Nolan   May 5, 2009 at 8:41am
skinny little sopre in high school in pennsylvania (which i may add was faster than texas 5A this year) stepped up to the A final of the 200 im in a jammer, with LZRs on both sides of him. What does he do? busts out 1:47, smashing the state record. those lzrs didnt mean sht to him
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#82
Anonymous Coward   May 1, 2009 at 9:10am
Anonymous Coward said:
oxymoron
Hey, man, shut up. At least they're free. And faster than, say, a drag suit.
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#81
Anonymous Coward   May 1, 2009 at 9:08am
Andre DeNegri said:
I know it's not an attack, but I must respond;
If you saw the Fred Bousquet/Brent Hawke video then you must of heard Garrett's opinions dealing with the issue of the suits and the swimmers, we share the same views.
Yeah, celebrate the athlete not the suit is also my view.
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#80
Anonymous Coward   April 30, 2009 at 11:50pm
Anonymous Coward said:
top o' the line Nike suits
oxymoron
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#79
Andre DeNegri   April 30, 2009 at 10:50pm
I know it's not an attack, but I must respond;
If you saw the Fred Bousquet/Brent Hawke video then you must of heard Garrett's opinions dealing with the issue of the suits and the swimmers, we share the same views.
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#78
Anonymous Coward   April 30, 2009 at 10:01pm
Dude your speedo deal must suck - we get the top o' the line Nike suits free for making Nationals and the 2nd class suits free for Sectionals and Jrs. And hells yes beating people in a brief is awesome.
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#77
Bryan   April 30, 2009 at 9:43pm
I have made sectionals, Jrs and Sr Nats. I don't get anything free at sectionals, and the Jr. and Sr. Nats free suits are just FS2s. I don't think there is any meet where they just give you a free LZR. Except the Olympics or similar. But its not so much that I can't afford it that I don't want it or need it. When it really becomes necessary, I'll get one, but right now I've got no problem getting up on the block in my brief next to all the LZRs and B70s and winning. I've always said its the swimmer not the suit. So until I'm forced to believe otherwise I'm good as is.
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#76
Anonymous Coward   April 30, 2009 at 9:37pm
If you can't afford a $500 suit, make Sectionals or Juniors or Nationals or Trials and get one for free! I have never paid for a tech suit ever. Our team has a sweet nike deal. Granted, the suits aren't as fast, but you get so much free stuff it's ridiculous.
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#75
Anonymous Coward   April 30, 2009 at 4:33pm
Bryan said:
I couldn't agree more with Andre. I personally race just in a brief most of the time, occasionally in an FS2 jammer. This is mainly because I can't afford a $500 suit. I take pride in beating people in LZRs or B70s in my 2 year old Nike practice suit. But, I think going back to the good old brief is an excellent dream. It will never really happen. And I know that if I ever get to a final at NCAAs or Trials I will probably obtain a tech suit. Because what if you lose by a tenth and it costs you a spot on the team or points that could have won you the championship? Thats on the suit, there is no debating that.
Swim Pasadena is known for beating people in old practice suits.
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#74
Anonymous Coward   April 30, 2009 at 4:32pm
Andre DeNegri said:
It won't happen (Swimming going back to the days of briefs), just like this economy won't be fixed by tomorrow. Keeping that in mind, we must also keep in mind that anything ranging from; compression, body stabilization, drag reduction (of any kind, weather it be, passive, or whatever the other kinds of drag their is), buoyancy, or just anything that the swimmer could not provide themselves, without the assitance of a tech suit. Though what I am saying would send the message that I would like to see everyone swim naked, it would not be so cool if that were allowed. So everyone should swim with the most minamal suit they have, but one that does not have any advantages over the human body.

I mean what is wrong with just guys in briefs and girls in just one-pieces?
Oh yeah and the swimmer in your profile pic is wearing a tech suit. Not an attack or anything, I just found it sort of ironic...
Good argument on the tech suit issue, you made me see things a little differently.
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#73
Anonymous Coward   April 30, 2009 at 4:30pm
Andre DeNegri said:
It won't happen (Swimming going back to the days of briefs), just like this economy won't be fixed by tomorrow. Keeping that in mind, we must also keep in mind that anything ranging from; compression, body stabilization, drag reduction (of any kind, weather it be, passive, or whatever the other kinds of drag their is), buoyancy, or just anything that the swimmer could not provide themselves, without the assitance of a tech suit. Though what I am saying would send the message that I would like to see everyone swim naked, it would not be so cool if that were allowed. So everyone should swim with the most minamal suit they have, but one that does not have any advantages over the human body.

I mean what is wrong with just guys in briefs and girls in just one-pieces?
Alright you have a very good argument. I also think it would be cool to have everyone wear briefs or one piece suits, I just don't think everyone should be forced to. Still, I'm stickin' by my "compression and drag reduction" theory of what should be allowed in tech suits.
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#72
Wils   April 30, 2009 at 11:19am
the ancient greeks had it right. we should all compete naked. though i would pity the timers.
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#71
Andre DeNegri   April 29, 2009 at 11:03pm
Yes Bryan! Though I am against tech suits with every fiber of my being, I wolud never let my personal prefances/issues with tech suits stop me when the gold is on the line, I will just have to know that it was not all me who won, it was me with the suit.
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#70
Bryan   April 29, 2009 at 10:58pm
I couldn't agree more with Andre. I personally race just in a brief most of the time, occasionally in an FS2 jammer. This is mainly because I can't afford a $500 suit. I take pride in beating people in LZRs or B70s in my 2 year old Nike practice suit. But, I think going back to the good old brief is an excellent dream. It will never really happen. And I know that if I ever get to a final at NCAAs or Trials I will probably obtain a tech suit. Because what if you lose by a tenth and it costs you a spot on the team or points that could have won you the championship? Thats on the suit, there is no debating that.
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#69
Andre DeNegri   April 29, 2009 at 10:50pm
It won't happen (Swimming going back to the days of briefs), just like this economy won't be fixed by tomorrow. Keeping that in mind, we must also keep in mind that anything ranging from; compression, body stabilization, drag reduction (of any kind, weather it be, passive, or whatever the other kinds of drag their is), buoyancy, or just anything that the swimmer could not provide themselves, without the assitance of a tech suit. Though what I am saying would send the message that I would like to see everyone swim naked, it would not be so cool if that were allowed. So everyone should swim with the most minamal suit they have, but one that does not have any advantages over the human body.

I mean what is wrong with just guys in briefs and girls in just one-pieces?
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#68
Anonymous Coward   April 29, 2009 at 10:24pm
Kirk Nelson said:
Maybe, but how would you quantify it or codify it? FINA can't exactly say "that FS Pro compression is good, but none of that LZR style compression, m'kay?"
Exactly, FINA needs to codify it. LZRs aren't just compression, they change your body position. The polyurethane/"lzr panels" keep your hips up. I believe they said the suit has to be less than 50% "non-permeable material" so i guess that is a start on making LZRs illegal too. If it ever drops down to less than 25% or none at all then the LZR will no longer be legal.
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#67
Kirk Nelson   April 29, 2009 at 12:00pm
Anonymous Coward said:
But the compression you get from an fs pro or a nike hydra/nike swift is very different from the core stabilizer/corset type thing in a lzr.
Maybe, but how would you quantify it or codify it? FINA can't exactly say "that FS Pro compression is good, but none of that LZR style compression, m'kay?"
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#66
Anonymous Coward   April 29, 2009 at 11:11am
Kirk Nelson said:
The only difference between "compression" and "body stabilization" is the wording.
But the compression you get from an fs pro or a nike hydra/nike swift is very different from the core stabilizer/corset type thing in a lzr.
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#65
Kirk Nelson   April 29, 2009 at 11:05am
Anonymous Coward said:
Drag reduction and compression are good things to have in a tech suit. Flotation and body position stabilizers? Not so much.
The only difference between "compression" and "body stabilization" is the wording.
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#64
Anonymous Coward   April 29, 2009 at 10:52am
"... its common sense that more speed= more drag."
You mean that more speed = more drag and THEREFORE, the old tech suits would produce a more noticable effect.

"...because anyone can use the suits it does 'even' the playing field..."
What if I don't want to shell out $300+ for a swimsuit? Especially at younger levels, only a few swimmers have the faster suits (LZR Racer). An even field would exist only if Speedo was giving away these suits. But that wouldn't solve anything because if everyone has the same advantage, nobody has an advantage.
Honestly, the only way this sport could be based on pure skill is with a "standard suit." FINA gets together with swimsuit companies to lay out the exact dimensions and materials of the only legal swimsuit. It souds ridiculous, but its true.
The sport of archery has undergone a similar transformation with the developement of technology; they managed to universalize that tech.
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#63
Anonymous Coward   April 29, 2009 at 8:57am
I agree with random guy. Drag reduction and compression are good things to have in a tech suit. Flotation and body position stabilizers? Not so much.
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#62
Random Guy   April 29, 2009 at 12:45am
This article is pure genius! I have always used the argument that "old" tech suits(FS1, aquablade, ect.) had a greater effect on faster swimmers than they did slower swimmers. There was a positive correlation between raw speed and time dropped from using the old tech suits. The faster you could swim naked the more the tech suit would help. This was probably because the main benefit from the old suits was drag reduction. I didn't go the physics route, but its common sense that more speed= more drag.

The new suits have a NEGATIVE correlation between speed and time dropped when putting on a tech suit. The slower you are without the suit, the more the suit will help. Although its not really "cheating" because anyone can use the suits it does "even" the playing field in a way which is basically what a socialist government would aim for(see United States of America 2009).
However, unlike the USA where tests are being dumbed down to the point where intelligence doesn't/won't matter and handouts are being given to inferior/lazy people swimming will eventually return to this "free market." Give coaches 10 years to catch up to the new technology and you will again see hard work and more talent prevail in swimming like it did back in 1999. You might see a whole different sport with less emphasis on stroke teqnique and endurance and more on fast twitch strength. You might also see the star swimmers looking more like football players, but the intangibles of yesterday will be there.
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#61
Anonymous Coward   April 28, 2009 at 11:05pm
Yo Dre, would you prefer that everyone swims naked? Wearing a brief would give people a significant addvantage over being nekkid.
I see what you're saying, but can you really say how fast someone is without the suit? If you put my suggested limitations on suits, they won't help all that much except for the mental aspect of it. So, as the wise philosopher Ron Burgundy says, "Agree to disagree."
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#60
Andre DeNegri   April 28, 2009 at 10:58pm
O.k. you can have limits, but the sport should no longer be called swimming, it should be called; "suitswimming", or "suswimmingit", maybe just "swimmingsuit," I guess using a tech suit is not cheating since it is allowed. But, there is always a but, it definetly tells that the swimmer wearing it is not as fast as they just swam, which is just a message that I don't really like. It's more of a personal dislike for the suits talking than me.
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#59
Anonymous Coward   April 28, 2009 at 10:57pm
Bro said:
46:34 in the 5000 IN THE MIDDLE OF PRACTICE. Michael Phelps did it. Don't talk unless you actually know sh*t about f*ck
Yo Bro simma down
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#58
Bro   April 28, 2009 at 10:55pm
body-morehoodrat said:
"previous comment was directed at the genius who said you can win 14 gold medals without working...its called talent"
don't talk unless you have actually seen him train
46:34 in the 5000 IN THE MIDDLE OF PRACTICE. Michael Phelps did it. Don't talk unless you actually know sh*t about f*ck
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#57
Anonymous Coward   April 28, 2009 at 10:50pm
Come on 'Dre, you've got to have some technology! The sport evolves as technology improves. You can't expect everyone to just keep on using the same equipment. Everyone used to wear huge goggles that stuck out like 5 inches from your face. Then someone figured out that making the goggles smaller would improve your times. Technology will always help sports, there just has to be a limit on how far it can go.
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#56
Anonymous Coward   April 28, 2009 at 9:39pm
I couldn't disagree more with many of the loin
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#55
Andre DeNegri   April 28, 2009 at 9:19pm
No, no, no, we should not sacrafice real swimming (swimming events being swum by the swimmer and not the swimmer in the suit) for a companies ability to stay solvent. Swimming is not a sport meant to stimulate peoples wallets.
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#54
Body-morehoodrat   April 28, 2009 at 10:46am
"previous comment was directed at the genius who said you can win 14 gold medals without working...its called talent"
don't talk unless you have actually seen him train
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#53
Poophead   April 28, 2009 at 9:08am
#52
Anonymous Coward   April 27, 2009 at 10:52pm
Well we've already come far enough that that is completely unrealistic. It would be nice to have everyone in a brief or jammer, but we can't do that now. SOME technology (compression, water repellency) should be allowed so manufacturers can make money and compete to put out a good product.
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#51
Andre DeNegri   April 27, 2009 at 10:21pm
But stilll with "fast suits" is it just the swimmer swimming? No it is not, my views might just be totally non-compromising, but a suit that is more than just a cover-up of the privates will be different from the human skin, adding an advantage.
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#50
Anonymous Coward   April 27, 2009 at 10:03pm
Compression and good fabric is as far as the suits should be able to go. No buoyancy, changing body position, core stabilizers, or any of that crap. Then you could still have fast suits, but the suits would be maximizing the ability of the athlete rather than enhancing the ability of the athlete.
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#49
Andre DeNegri   April 27, 2009 at 9:59pm
Well ask yourself the question, are the suits different from the human skin? I think yes, my skin does not have polyutherane (sp?) or core stabilizers, etc. If the suits add ANY advantage, which it is undeniable that they do, then it is not the swimmer, it is the suit. To clairify I am a fan of fast swimming, but if you were a tech suit, it's is not just your endurance, core strength, training, aerobic/anaerobic capicity, which can be obtained through training. But when you add the suit in the mix, it's no longer, the classic variables (lised above), it's the suit and those variables. Swimming is no longer the sport contested to see who the fastest swimmer is, it's the fastest swimmer in the suit.
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#48
Anonymous Coward   April 27, 2009 at 9:26pm
Biggest problem: the suits aren't equal. Everyone should be required to wear the same one.
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#47
Si   April 27, 2009 at 8:45pm
Hahaha, yes indeed. So when US Trials come along and records are being broken, then this whole thing will settle down? Sounds like Witch Hunting. :-D
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#46
No   April 27, 2009 at 8:13pm
previous comment was directed at the genius who said you can win 14 gold medals without working...its called talent
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#45
Chill People   April 27, 2009 at 7:05pm
everyone is making such a big deal about this. desantis has it right. if everyone has the same access to the same technology then it is all a level playing field. the only places where it is unfair is the age group level where not everyone is willing to fork over 500+ a season.

the only people who get truly cheated are those who swam before us and set the "untouchable" benchmarks like pieter VDH and popov. they knew their records would one day be broken and to have them stand for eight years is truly incredible.
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#44
Anonymous   April 27, 2009 at 6:42pm
LONG LIVE AUBURN UNIVERSITY! BRETT HAWKE, AARON CIARLA AND ALL THE COACHES ROCK! SUITS OR NOT, THEY BEAT EVERYONE AT NCAA'S. SORRY COWARD, YOUVE GOT TO WORK TO SWIM FAST. SUITS OR NOT, NOTHING BEATS HARD WORK.
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#43
Anonymous Coward   April 27, 2009 at 6:08pm
#42
Anonymous Coward   April 27, 2009 at 5:47pm
yeah you can win 14 gold medals without working...its called talent
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#41
Anonymous Coward   April 27, 2009 at 5:38pm
BRING BACK PAPER SUITS!!!!
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#40
Anonymous   April 27, 2009 at 4:41pm
The lycra/cotton analogy is not wrong at all. At it's the core, the issue is that Tech Suits offer a benefit only to those swimmers able to wear them. If the suggestion is that new materials equate to WR swims, then results are stacked against swimmers without sponsors to subsidize those costs. What lycra/cotton analogy proposes is a question of price. If all Tech Suits were less $100, would anyone have a problem? When speedo moved to Lycra way-back-when, the swimming world could afford the change. What Tech Suits are doing now, by their sudden dominance on the race scene, is making the sport pay-to-play. Materials have always changed - cotton>lycra>papersuit>S2000>etc - the difference today is price.
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#39
Kirk Nelson   April 27, 2009 at 3:05pm
Anonymous Coward said:
now with suits those who do not have as much talent or work as hard can be competative
Prove it. Where's your evidence? How do you know guys like Bernard, Bousquet and Munoz have less talent or work less hard than others?

I have a feeling when Worlds rolls around we'll see lots of the same names on the medal stand as we have in the past. If the new suits help (and they certainly seem to) they are going to help everyone. Yeah, we will see some new stars emerge and some established stars will falter, but it still takes talent and hard work to get to the top.
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#38
Anonymous Coward   April 27, 2009 at 2:51pm
Point is in free market we had results based on talant and what work was put in now with suits those who do not have as much talent or work as hard can be competative - everybody gets nearly the same wage whether you are the boss or the worker. Maybe when obama get's done it will be more clear to some of you
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#37
Tallswimmer   April 27, 2009 at 2:45pm
I believe Trent's point is that if a swimmer in a traditional suit is competing in the free market (competition) that the interference of the suit (and companies producing said suit) constitutes socialism, much like governmental control of the market. Not precisely the right terminology I think, but given the greater social debate in the United States re: socialism and free market, a valiant attempt at drawing parallels.
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#36
Reality   April 27, 2009 at 2:44pm
Anonymous Coward said:
he is regarded as one of the lazy swimmers in the sport
Pull your head out of your ass. You don't win 14 gold medals by being lazy at anything
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#35
WIDEtotheNER   April 27, 2009 at 12:52pm
I've read this article 3 or 4 times now and I'm still confused why the terms "socialism" and "free market" are being used. I can't understand the context that's being used. 4 years after PVH set the world record, his time was surpassed by several other swimmers. How does this = socialism? If you wanted a fairer playing field then you should be in favor of letting ALL suits be legal. This would eliminate barriers of entry for competing suit companies and dramatically drop the price for all tech suits, thus allowing more swimmers the chance to compete with the "HAVES".
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#34
Chris DeSantis   April 27, 2009 at 12:01pm
#33
Kirk Nelson   April 27, 2009 at 11:52am
Where's the evidence that suits help some swimmers more than others? Maybe Bousquet and Bernard were ready to bust out great swims regardless of what suits they were wearing?
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#32
Anonymous Coward   April 27, 2009 at 11:00am
he is regarded as one of the lazy swimmers in the sport
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#31
Anonymous Coward   April 27, 2009 at 10:59am
phelps works his ass off????? check your sources
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#30
Cuffy Meigs   April 27, 2009 at 12:18am
The suit talk can fall where it may I say. I just applaud the fact that a swimming site populated by young 20 somethings is referencing a classic like "Atlas Shrugged". If ever there was a time for a revival of the sentiment at the core of this Ayn Rand classic, it is now. Let's rediscover the real America. We can swim fast also.
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#29
Correction   April 26, 2009 at 11:36pm
Ive heard that set before, but his third 5000 was actually 46:30. Nobody can go sub 45:00 in a 5000
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#28
Jeff Kostoff   April 26, 2009 at 11:25pm
One of his more impressive sets:
3 x 5000 on 50:00 (1:00 base) descend
last one was in the neighborhood of 45:30 (55.5 base)
beast
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#27
Anonymous   April 26, 2009 at 10:09pm
Very true! Fast swimming is spreading around the world. Bousquet is a clear example of guy who works his ass off just like Phelps and I'm sure Bernard as well. Times are different however the basics are the same: there is no magic pill. Work hard and you should see results. Sprinters is the case being? I all the way. What will Cesar Cielo go at his trials ? Oh. By the way-training partner of Bousquet. BIG thumbs up to Coach Hawke and the Auburn Program! These guy knows his job and better yet knows what caliber of athletes he has. The sky is the limit and I think we haven't see anything yet.
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#26
Reality   April 26, 2009 at 9:12pm
Suits do not make you a world record holder. Case in point: distance events. The 400, 800, and 1500 free WRs were all set years ago by training animals (Hackett and Thorpe), long before the arrival of these technical suits. No one has even gotten close since, even with the suits. All these records are being broken by sprinters mainly because of the shift in training towards speed rather than endurance. The suits certainly help, but I find it hard to believe that a Jaked can be so much better than a Lzr or b70. They are basically made of the same material. Additionally, check out the national records set by Jeff Kostoff in the 80s that are still around. He wore a nylon suit and still almost 30 years later with technical suits and pools and new training no one can beat him. Why is that? Because he is generally accepted to be the hardest training swimmer EVER. Check out some of his old workouts. You can probably google it. Everyone who is on this site or anywhere else blaming the suits for "ruining the sport", creating an unfair advantage, and all the other unreasonable things people are saying need to look themselves in the mirror and ask whether or not they are just making excuses. Michael Phelps is successful because HE WORKS HIS ASS OFF, not because of a suit. Same goes for the French guys breaking world records. If you don't like that someone is beating you, instead of copping out and blaming it on a suit, maybe you should consider the reality. They probably worked harder than you did.
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#25
Akos Fabian   April 26, 2009 at 8:58pm
Everyone who is world best deserves it, because they put in the work to get there... The question is if they still would be there without the suit? No disrespect to Mr. Bousquet, but in the last 4 years he never was a real title contender in the LC 100m free and never went under 48 seconds from a flat start...
The problem with the suits IS that they don't help everyone to the same extent. If it was just drag reduction, that would effect everyone the same, but compression, core stabilization and buoyancy... these help iron out technique and posture flaws (of course lets not forget that there used to be a trade off for bulking up and having to carry more weight in the water, which is also canceled out partially by the suits, so it doesn't really favor certain body types, rather expands the types compatible with world class swimming) . Basically the suits help lesser swimmers catch up to the technically near-perfect swimmers. Before you guys tear me apart, all these swimmers are world class athletes, but there is a reason why some of them "only" make championship finals, while others keep wining them.
So is it fair that while some swimmers worked hard to perfect their technique others can take the easy route and have the suit do it for them? Again, I'm not questioning the effort put it in by Munoz for instance, but lets face it, he was relatively nowhere without the Jaked.
Fast swimming is exciting, but it would be nice to see WRs get broken, because the swimmer has evolved and become better at mastering movement through water, rather than because of a swimming aid that favors those with more room for improvement.
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#24
Evolution   April 26, 2009 at 8:54pm
Anonymous Coward said:
All this talk about suits is getting pretty lame. The easiest comparison in technological advancements is golf. Can we compare Tiger Woods to Jack Nicklaus in their domination of the sport just because Tiger uses "advanced" clubs and golf balls? Sure...its fun to watch Tiger smack one 350 yards...would it be fun to watch him smack one 260 yards with a driver from 1968...? No...get over it....its the evolution of swimming. Popov, Biondi, Hall Jr and the like are all still great, just as Jack, Arnold Palmer etc are still great...
Here Here - but... (here we go), make the suits equal. I believe at the Fina Congress the suits won't go away but regulated
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#23
Adam Shaw   April 26, 2009 at 8:04pm
wats up with this Jaked stuff
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#22
Anonymous Coward   April 26, 2009 at 7:53pm
my team has a "make nationals in a regular suit" law, then go to nationals and get a tech suit. that way we're not going real fast in the tech suits ....we're going real fast in normal 2007 suits. if the new suits help at the end of the summer, great.

i certainly don't know what's going on when someone puts on a tech suit. especially a blue 70. never seen a jaked. and who the heck knows WHAT is going to happen with all this...
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#21
Chris DeSantis   April 26, 2009 at 7:49pm
So I've heard time and time again this argument- you call it "mouchian" (nice Atlas Shrugged reference)- but where is the evidence. Care to point the finger at someone who is world best who doesn't deserve it?
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#20
Anonymous   April 26, 2009 at 7:38pm
I couldn't agree with you more! Talent and suits are changing our sport for good. Great for Bousquet, Bernard, Phelps, Sullivan, Munoz and every swimmer that breaks a WR or simply goes best time."Records are meant to be broken" fast swimming is exciting, yes there is politics involved (FINA) and perhaps a bigger problem (money) coming directly from these suit companies. Let's put all these non sense bs and give credit to the swimmers and coaches because at the end of the day, they are the ones that do all the work while some of "us" just sit behind the computer and play God by judging everyone that comes across and destroys a previous WR. Don't get me wrong, suits help but at the same time this help must be only available to a certain level of swimmers, i.e national team members, collegiate, us open, masters, etc. By giving access to absolutely "everyone" as far as suits go, then we are facing a much bigger issue. Pretty self explanatory, junior level, age groupers, etc should not need to wear such devices. Those type of athletes still are developing, therefore they must focus on bigger things, technique, stroke count, etc.
Ah so much to say and argue. This is just starting folks and trust me here, I highly doubt FINA would remove these suits and therefore their WRs.
Let's just see how the US trials will end up and how many WR will be broken then? Maybe we all can say that Phelps didn't break a WR because of his newly developed "technique" instead of his super suit? Come on people, wake up! FAST swimming is exciting!
See you all in Rome.
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#19
Anonymous Coward   April 26, 2009 at 7:31pm
in australia we have just made rules that age group swimmers aren't allowed suits that go past the knees and are opend back for girls. boys can only wear the shorts. and we still had a 13 year old girl go 59.97 for 100 fly. you cant tell me a suit is making her go that fast.
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#18
Jordan Rees   April 26, 2009 at 7:06pm
I think the suits should have cuts... like you need atleast sr national level qualifications to get the lzr and b 70 and now jaked, little 12 and unders should not be allowed to wear a lzr at there jo's.
but a suit cant make you drop a second, you still have to work hard and mentally be ready for your races i just think the ability of these suits aids us even more as swimmers. The people who say "oh i got a lzr im going to swim fast now" shouldnt even be swimming there counting on their suit to make them fast when they need to bust their ass in the pool to swim fast and have the suit help them. not count on the suit
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#17
Conner Andrews   April 26, 2009 at 7:02pm
very true
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#16
Peter_Galick   April 26, 2009 at 6:33pm
"I threw my suit in the water and it didnt go anywhere." -Marcus Rogan

Those are some words of wisdom. Yes the suits change the sport, yes they make a difference, yes they make people faster, and yes they help some more than others. But thats kind of the same way someone with bigger feet and hands or natural buoyancy moves easier in the water than someone else. I swam in a B70 and I didnt set any world records. It still takes talent and hard work to win, but the type of talent is different and the type of hard work is different too.
Is that a bad thing?
Why is the swimming world so frightened by change?
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#15
Anonymous Coward   April 26, 2009 at 5:03pm
Coward, come on now! Before MP there was GHJr. I'm just saying or maybe we all need someone to take his outspoken spot in the National Team. By the way, "no suit does the kick sets, am sessions and so on..."
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#14
Eddie Willers   April 26, 2009 at 5:00pm
A lot of looters showing up to defend the new era, which is sad. Swimmers who have seen the most improvemnt don't want to admit it is anything other than their own hard work and swimmers who haven't improved are confused and concerned they will come off sounding bitter if they speak out against it.
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#13
Anonymous Coward   April 26, 2009 at 4:49pm
All this talk about suits is getting pretty lame. The easiest comparison in technological advancements is golf. Can we compare Tiger Woods to Jack Nicklaus in their domination of the sport just because Tiger uses "advanced" clubs and golf balls? Sure...its fun to watch Tiger smack one 350 yards...would it be fun to watch him smack one 260 yards with a driver from 1968...? No...get over it....its the evolution of swimming. Popov, Biondi, Hall Jr and the like are all still great, just as Jack, Arnold Palmer etc are still great...
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#12
Anonymous Coward   April 26, 2009 at 4:41pm
Who cares what Gary Hall Jr. thinks. I imagine he's feeling quite embarrassed at the moment. Remember when he accused Sullivan of taking drugs? Remember this golden nugget here:

"It is not the suit. I am sorry. I wish it was. Believe me, I am going to try to convince myself by trials that it is a magic suit that will send me into another dimension, which is where Sullivan is ....Take it from a guy that has worn the suit, the only guy that you can talk to that has worn the suit, a guy that is paid to say that it is the greatest suit in the world and it is the greatest suit in the world by the way, it's not the suit. "
What a moron. Hopefully a 20.94 will get it through his thick head that it's the suit, not drugs.
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#11
Anonymous Coward   April 26, 2009 at 4:36pm
It's the reverse, isn't it? Now everyone wants the government (FINA) to step in and create regulations that would add "fairness" to the marketplace. Government intervention sounds like socialism to me.

Oh, and the lycra/cotton analogy is wrong. The issue is not the huge increase in times, but that there are huge variations in drag/buoyancy between the current generation of suits. Lycra boosted everyone's performances equally, but the complexity of these new suits is giving some swimmers an unfair advantage over others (bousquet vs leveaux).
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#10
Craig   April 26, 2009 at 4:35pm
This is my take, the suits have little to do with it. The old era of swimmers, the texas trio, GH jr, and amanda beard, They are being replaced by, lochte, Spann (won the 2 breast at trials), and phelps and more! there are younger swimmers nippin at their heels. Not to mention during the Olympics, phelps broke all but ONE record, in the events he swam in. The 100 fly, which was set with a "worse" suit, FS pro, than the LZR...
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#9
Anonymous   April 26, 2009 at 4:15pm
Let the new era begins! Just look around people: baseball, football and God only knows what other sports tainted by drugs, anabolics, etc. These guys are not your regular Arod or Giambi. There is no drugs here (well i hope not), Let's face it- suits have nothing to do with this. No suits will make you go under 21 sec in the 50m free, oh no my bad! Someone already did!. is the MONEY factor. These swimmers are making bank, something unknown several years ago. I wonder what Gary Hall Jr has to say about this. Any takers?
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#8
I'm Right   April 26, 2009 at 4:11pm
The swimmer makes the suit, not the other way around. I can understand if there is a boyency issue, however if that does not apply, you cant stop technology from advancing, we mine as well go back to paper suits if you argue that the suits are too fast. Crazy things happen during olympic years, even with that said, there were people 'hovering' around Pieters time previous to 2008, stefan nystrand went 47.91 in 2007. If you look at the times for the 100 free all the present day 'stars' of modern day sprinting have gone from being within target range of his WR in their early 20's to becoming older, stronger and faster in their mid to late 20's (even 30's, hence: God, i mean, Jason Lezak). When Bolt won his WR's in the sprints i remember his in his fairly loose fitting green and yellow shorts crushing the competition when there were people on his heat wearing the newest speedsuits who in comparison had the technological advantage in resistance but bolt still finished outran them all. I know comparing running to swimming is like apples to oranges but it is still the swimmer that makes the suit.
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#7
Anonymous Coward   April 26, 2009 at 3:47pm
Was there a similar controversy when lycra replaced cotton? Those suits were faster as well, and all the same arguments against tech suits would apply.
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#6
AC   April 26, 2009 at 3:43pm
even if the suits do help some more than others, swimming has always been a sport where some body types are naturally better than others. all that will change, if anything, is the body type that is most dominant
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#5
Jw   April 26, 2009 at 3:32pm
How is the suit not one of the "elements" put into the swimmer -- as mental, physical, and technical preparation are?
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#4
Anonymous Coward   April 26, 2009 at 3:27pm
The problem is that the suits obviously help some swimmers better than other swimmers right now, and that swimmers and coaches dont have time to adapt with the revolving door of new and better suits coming out.
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#3
John Bradley   April 26, 2009 at 3:25pm
Nice try, but Socialism is over-reaching a bit. How about a Corporatocracy where corporations have corrupted the process, and with it the leaders of the sport? Just saying.
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#2
Trey Dotson   April 26, 2009 at 3:18pm
Nobody can deny that the people wearing the suits are what matters not the suits themselves. Just because I have an extremely fast suit doesn't mean I'm going to swim a world record- the better swimmer will still win. In my view, the swimming world is still a "free market"- those with better training and more experience still win.
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#1
Adin   April 26, 2009 at 2:50pm
interesting view
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