A Speed Based Age Group Program

Very nice site!

I've been to a few of Coley's practices and they are fun, challenging, and engaging. The dryland is awesome, and he creates some pretty inovative ways of keeping the swimming "fresh."

With all that said, there are 1,000 different ways to train 1,000 different swimmers....this approach works for our team, for our athletes, and that is frankly where my focus lies.

I train my athletes much the same way and I see positive results and most importantly, happy, enthusiastic swimmers at practice. Contrary to some posts here, I DO believe that you can teach kids proper stroke technique early and that by introducing it to them earlier, they then have a better understanding of their bodies and its movements when they do indeed hit their growth spurts. Our team's philosophy has been that the kids can increase their endurance work as they get older and stronger, but an aggressive sprint mentality is where we want our 12 and under swimmers' focus to be. Sprinting is more enjoyable for the kids, I feel as if I get a MUCH more honest effort in sets, and it is vital to race strategy as they get older.

no they won't burnout as such but they won't make it as senior swimmers

NO! Because 90% of all of the races in swimming are SPRINTS!!

Law of specificity.
And, to say these kids will burn out is laughable. How would anyone know this? The potential for burnout/injury/illness etc is FAR greater with the higher volume program.

Isn't the approach of "everybody's got to sprint" just as bad as the approach that "everybody's got to do distance" ???

I want to see his kids take a visit to Mission Viejo's distance lane

Sadly (or fortunately depending on how you look at it), the club that I have been coaching for the past two years has literally no distance swimmers at the upper levels. There may be some potential with the up and coming swimmers to go distance/mid-distance, but we have no been type-casted as a technique based, speed and speed endurance club. We have broken all of our team sprint records, but have not even touched the longer events...

You are just emphasising my point. These kids are doinng ubelievably well at junior level but they will burn out and drop off before they get to senior level. How many of the 8 kids that set those records will do US/american records when they are senior swimmers??

LOSC is better than good, and there aren't many teams that can lay claim to 8 NAG records in one year in 3 different age groups. I saw some of Coley's kids do some incredible stuff at Jr's this week, and I have confidence that this guy is doing it right (however unorthodox it may seem).

I spoke with him this week and I know they do different types of training (they are not doing speed work everyday). However, speed and technique are emphasized at this club which is highly relevant for any race.

The point is not how good these swimmer's will be at agte group level. You need to look at those age group teams who have the most swimmer's competing at international level.

I think it's so funny how coaches think. It's got to be "Speed Training" or It's got to be "Aerobic Training" ....

How about figuring out what each athlete needs, and just do THAT? It's tough to cater to multiple types, but with with preparation and focus it CAN (and does) happen.
Otherwise, coaches miss some athletes. No doubt LOSC has somebody that would be better served to train in a different way -- but since the coach seems to do it one way and one way only, those swimmers will underachieve in his program.
Likewise, a coach who perscribes "Base" training in the same way to each swimmer is missing some swimmers. If you don't figure out what makes the speedy swimmers tick, and then apply it in an aerobic way that fits THEM, then you will miss some of the fastest swimmers on your team, and train them incorrectly.
To assume that all swimmers must fit into YOUR way is a great way to guarantee that you will LIMIT some of your athletes.
To fit your general philosophy into different types of athletes, and to be flexible and creative in regards to what your different athletes need IMO is the way to go.
Why don't you people look at the BEST age group teams and figure out what they do? LOSC is good, but there are other age group teams that sort of have this figured out.
And no JC, the BEST age group teams figure out a way to get the base without losing the speed of their best swimmers.

Age group training should be used to build the swimers' aerobic base so that when they are older they can work on speed more effectively. This speed based program is great when swimmers are young and want success straight away but they will never be successful at the highest level or on longer events as they don't have the aerobic base to last that long.

hey thanks Andre! Foster all that talent, huh? I appreciate that!

Grace is definitely back on LOSC. She feels Coley is the best coach for her, and that she will continue to improve under his training to her fullest potential.

Really? Thanks for the clarification. Sorry about the misinfo! A good friend of hers told me she went to MAC, so I thought that was that...

Come now, lets not BICKER and ARGUE over WHO killed WHO!
- Monty Python

Wait so Grace is back? I hope she finds something she likes because wherever she swims, she just needs to swim to foster all that talent.

Did swimmers like Alain Bernard or Fred Bousquet train like this when they were younger?

I would like to not argue, but both LOSC and THSC are 2 of Oregon's best teams, It's just that THSC has had more of a history because we have been around longer, and there is nothing wrong with that. I never said that LOSC was bad, I know some of thier athletes and respect them a lot. I am going to stop because Garrett never put up this video to start a debate over which team is better and I think Coley did'nt have Garrett put this video up to prove anything, but that his style of training is different and working, to some extent. If his athletes wanted to swim different events they would just ask him or switch teams, like Grace did. (She did i've talked to several MAC swimmers). Just to say again LOSC has some extremly talented athletes and I have nothing against them.

Carlson is back with LOSC after about 3 or 4 weeks of indecisiveness

-Team Member

I'm pretty darn sure Carlson switched teams... MAC, like DeNegri said... she hasn't swam at a meet yet or anything, so ppl who aren't in the Oregon swimming scene wouldn't know. I think it was because MAC was closer or something, but she tried out the Dolphins too, but chose MAC at the end. Why do you think Carlson is still swimming at LO?

THSC has Morgan Henderson-Kunz, but I don't really care about this THSC vs LOSC fight. They're both great. THSC has more depth and experience and LO is new power. All I would say is that I'd rather join THSC over LOSC cuz I'm no sprinter.

No Andre, again, for the 32423rd time, you are mistaken. Grace swims for Coach Coley and is currently attached to LOSC.

Since you seem to be an authority on everything, perhaps you should contact someone from LOSC to confirm.
FYI, Thills sent only ONE kid to trials...Morgan Scroggy, the other swimmer who happened to wear a Thills cap at the meet, was swimming for and trained at Georgia for the entire year except for 3 weeks prior to trials. Their coach cannot and does not take credit for her.

Actually Grace Carlson now sims for MAC, not that LOSC is bad or anything, but you should get your facts straight.

True, but in that case WE "USA Swimming" put together a "Sport Science Summit" a short number of years ago that came up with these conclusions, I'm sure this info along with other findings by G Sokolovas are what Coley (and others) are speaking of...

"Recommendation: Coaches should optimize aerobic training during this "sensitive period" (11-13 years for females/12-14 years for males) to maximize athlete's aerobic development. It is suggested that pre-pubescent athletes (ages 9-12/14) focus on longer distances (i.e., longer repeats and longer competitive events) for reasons related to both skill development and aerobic capacity development."
"Recommendation: Coaches need to first develop the athlete's aerobic capacity and then gradually increase anaerobic load for maximum development of anaerobic capacity."
And this is the reason why so many kids, especially males, leave the sport at that age (12-14).

FYI Grace Carlson, the 12 year old Oly Trial qualifier, DOES still swim for LOSC. Get your facts straight before you make a post like that.

And, there are no college kids coming back in the summer b/c LOSC had no older kids after all of them left years ago b/c of the old coach. This is the first year they've had any graduating Sr's in about 4 years.

FYI Grace Carlson, the 12 year old Olympic Trial qualifier is not swimming for LO anymore. And why don't we see any older kids? I've never seen any college kids return to swim with LO over the summer or ever. Why is that? I wonder if it's because of the team transformation a couple years ago, but wouldn't there usually be at least some older swimmers left?

And Morgan Scroggy started off at LO, but under coach Tom Weltchek with a completely different program. THSC can't take all the pre-collegiate credit.

Colin - How many swimmers are on THSC? I know they have FAR more swimmers than LOSC, so they should beat LOSC's age groupers. Depth is huge at the local level. It doesn't prove that THSC's way of training is better, just that they have many more swimmers.

Use your words like a big boy now!
"there," "defentley," "Yhe," "wich," "arobicley"

I'm glad this club called T-Hills has such bright kids...

word

distance swimmers rock

I wouldn't. I'm a distance swimmer. They could keep up for the first 100 and then its game over

hey colin. the reason T-Hills beat LOSC is because they have TWICE as many swimmers as LO does. if you look LO won almost every event. just look at the difference between the number of swimmers on each team.. then you can talk.

if you look at there age group swimmers(which this video is about) the LOSC age groupers got beat by T-Hills 843 to 680. This defentley shows that T-Hills way of training is better. Also even at the 200's they train there swimmers to swim fast at the start not the finish. To prove that Grace carlson went a 2: 24(which is fast), but she swam it wrong at the end She went 30,36,37 high and 40. Yhe winner was from T-Hills wich was 2 sec. faster, Her splits were 33,36,37 and 38. This is why at the age group level you want to swim arobicley.

i'd hate to swim against this team at their next meet.

LAKE OSWEGO SWIMMERS UNITE!!!!!

Daniel Chen is top 10 in the 50 free for 14 year olds.
As is Nick Bode, who has since aged up

http://www.usaswimming.org/usasweb/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=688&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en

Hey yeah i swim for this team and the reason that you do not see alot of us swimming distance events is beacuse we dont want to, it's our choice, we arent forced to do events like the 1650 and 500

Who is him? (the ones that top 10)?

He is top 10 in the nation as well.

I have taken time to think about my previous posts and learn the reaction from others of the Floswimming coummunity, and I now think me saying they will swim slower in college is folly. I actually greatly respect Coley and his kids, and think that there approach will help them become better athletes and swimmers. Just cause they don't swim REAL events does'nt mean there slow or don't deserve credit. It is obvious that his kids work hard and that work clearly pays off. JK on the real events :)

He talks like he is taking credit for Coley's coaching. I am tired of the hall's

i'm pretty sure no one would pretend to be Gary Hall Sr. and the only reason why none of you seem to like him is because he's right and has a lot of success.

now that's saying a lot...oregon...please

Unfortunately many athletes may have unrealized potential as sprinters because they have done distance training their whole lives. When you train distance, you spend most of your time training at a pace slower than your race pace. Sprint training teaches your muscles to perform at race pace.

My point was an age group program involving athletes under the age of 18 may be better served by a sprint based program. Partly because it is less punishing than a distance program which will in turn be more sustainable by the age group athlete. But in addition the ability to do well in 200 yard or less events will make the age group athlete more marketable come recruiting time.
As an “adult athlete” in college, it may be more appropriate to ramp up the distance a little because physiologically the athletes’ body will be better equipped to handle the increased demand. However, even in college, you may not realize your full potential (especially if you are a sprinter) if you never are allowed to participate in a sprint based program.

Thanks for finally acknowledging the viability to Coley’s program! :)

i didn't vote for you

and hes basically the fastest one in oregon.

There is always a time in the season where you have to crank out the yardage, but there are also times in the season where you have to up the intensity and work anaerobically. Sean Hutchinson had a really good quote about this, "Grant Hackett is fast in the 200. You don't go 14:34 without being fast in the 200." Eric Vendt has speed, Ous Mellouli has speed, and Ian Thorpe had speed. Even the great distance coach Jon Urbancheck said "Swimming fast is the only way to swim fast." The argument between more intensity vs more yards really is pointless because in order to be able to swim multiple events, multiple times, over multiple days you need to get in good condition, but in order to have the speed to excel in those events you need to train speed. You cannot excel without both speed and conditioning, and LO simply chooses to do their conditioning in different ways than most and use water time for speed work.

why the skepticism????

"Finally, it is unfortunate that swimmers and their coaches are insecure about their training methods. If you believe in the old school way of distance training, then stick with it (because it has been successful for many). But don’t let the insecurity of your beliefs cause you to criticize new methods and ideas. New methods and ideas is how the sport will be perpetuated forward."

-all coaches at all levels should keep this in mind. good luck to all

i doubt this is real

As a athlete of many sports, I find that Coley's system is great for introducing swimmers to new sports. Different sports have a different part of training that you cannot do in a pool and it opens there mind to different types of practices and teaching styles. Also what's the chance of any athlete becoming a pro in their sport. and after collage when they might won't have time to go to the pool they will now know how to good a good work out on land in their town

Inspired coach said
"The key to successful college swimming is to be competitive in at least three events. This is especially true if you want to go on travel meets. Out of the 18 total NCAA events (including relay swims), only 3 (400IM, 500FR, 1650FR) require the athlete to swim over 200 yards. So tell me, why wouldn’t you want to train for sprinting?"

OK, lets take the 200 events starting with the 2 free..Of the top 8 times in the us this year Walters,Berens,Vanderkay,Basson,Mclean,all have more yardage based programs..Lochte and Fraser swim with Troy at Fl who has always done more yardage so I am guess that none of these swimmers train in sprint group....I have no idea how Staub trains but as a sprinter, we can put him in that group..200 fly swimmers..not so sure about this group..Georgia does a lot of yardage with Dylla and the Stanford guys Bollier and Mosko both are 500 swimmers so I believe they are probably ..
This is going to be to long..A better way would be look at the top 8 swimmers in each 200 event and see if they come from a sprint based program (eg cal) or a heavier yardage program based program (uf,uva).I would put Michigan in the later because even though Bottom was there last year, so was Urbanchek and Bowman was gone less then a year.Auburn has two in that group and I would love to know how they train ..I am sure 200 flyers would love not having to do sets of 20x200 fly anymore..
200 im'ers..interesting..some also train for 400 so you know what group they belong in but also their is a lot of variety in this group and about have are foreign swimmers so you cant be sure about their training background.
200 back, again probably half do not train like sprinters..
If you do not have the physiology of a sprinter and most of us dont ,how can you get optimal results training like one? I dont believe you need to beat the crap out of kids or do timed 10,000's but you do need a good yardage base..look at the 200 free results

the training that Coley speaks of is not "innovation" invented by Coley. there are a few successful teams that employ similar strategies with great success, at the age group/hs level!

The key to successful college swimming is to be competitive in at least three events. This is especially true if you want to go on travel meets. Out of the 18 total NCAA events (including relay swims), only 3 (400IM, 500FR, 1650FR) require the athlete to swim over 200 yards. So tell me, why wouldn’t you want to train for sprinting?

From what I can tell, the athletes are having much more fun sprint training versus distance training. Because the time in the water is much shorter, the repetitive stress issues you get with distance training (i.e., destroyed shoulders) are much less prevalent. This adds to the athlete’s enjoyment and sustainability of the sport.
Finally, it is unfortunate that swimmers and their coaches are insecure about their training methods. If you believe in the old school way of distance training, then stick with it (because it has been successful for many). But don’t let the insecurity of your beliefs cause you to criticize new methods and ideas. New methods and ideas is how the sport will be perpetuated forward.
Thank you Floswimming for showing us Coley’s innovations.

Coach,

I never said that we train middle distance or that we do not do any sprint work or racing. I was commenting on the fact that Coley's total yardage and dry land emphasis sounds relatively similar to ours for 13 and unders and if we can get greater results in distance races and he gets greater results in sprints then it is based as much on attitude as on anything else. While we have many kids that excel in distance, we have several that would much rather sprint, and do.

r u kidding?

fast swimmers can only be made from swimmers who want to be fast
if a certain swimmer really wants to succeed, they most likely will (to a degree) with whatever program they are a part of

if we have all these different swimmers that have all come from different programs and training but are all the same speed(at the top level that is), then what is the common factor that is getting them to all swim fast?
is it the believe that because it's been done before at that particular club(i.e. olympian) it can happen to any kid on the team that shows some talent?
what is the common factor if we are producing fast swimmers that all come from different programs?

This coach is obviously on the ball, and has everything straight as far as what he wants to do with his athletes. They get great results.

But he's wrong.
And the guy in the plane seat next to him, who like the middle distance training is wrong too.
How can either be right? Athletes are individuals. They are not so easily fit into mathmatical equations as we would like to think. Not everyone responds well to the same thing.
Going all sprints is as bad as going all distance, unless you're ok with missing kids.

questioning a technique is not "hate" nor bashing...its a question, open for discussion which is what this is all about..look at it as an opportunity to educate the masses

Sokolovas' research was not a "study", it was research... Getting yardage totals from coaches over a numer of years.... There is no way to a study on this, without taking 10+ years, and the majority of dr.g's research was done via survey of coaches and national team members, and others. But it wasn't a traditional lab study, there are thousands of variables that go into that time window. This is not an exact science, there are no absolutes.

To get to any result in this type of research you are going to have a bell curve of different paths to get to the same result, some more extreme, some more tame, and you have outliers that are exceptions to the rule. It's statistics and human motor learning and development 101. Don't quote research that didn't study this variable. If you're not convinced, email dr. G and ask him, he has always answered any of my questions, whenever I've asked.
Don't bash, don't hate on what's different than the norm. USA doesn't require us to "drink the kool-aid" and do their bidding (compared to some other countries)... I completely agree with the bob bowman video, diversity is our greatest strength. (the link is in the comments somewhere, definetely a must-see)
Coach, I think you have some great ideas here, keep up the great work and continued success...

Just curious..is their a 500 and up swimmer that is nationally ranked that has ever been in a program like this? Or even a 200 swimmer? Even that middle distance of 200-500 the swimmers that excel all have a heavier yardage base..VanderKay,Phelps, Berens, Walters,Basson,Kleuh,Mclean and then swimmers like vendt and jenson who are legends for the miles they have put in at practice are very competitive (judging by OT"s) in that middle distance group..
I still beleive that most (not all) swimmers in a 200 or above need to have a good aerobic base..but how that is defined in the future will be interesting. Can you get that kind of base and swim a 4:10 500 from doing less yardage at a more "intense" rate..were the above swimmers just born a 5 years to late when their was still the" beat the crap out of them "mentality? I wonder what a Kate Ziegler would have done with these kind of workouts.

Dr. Sokolovas, who wrote all the Aerobic window stuff, is now gone -- not employed by USA Swimming.

Great video on a program and coach who have it right, in my opinion. Kudos to Coley!

Gary Sr.
The Race Club

Yea, seriously.

True, but in that case WE "USA Swimming" put together a "Sport Science Summit" a short number of years ago that came up with these conclusions, I'm sure this info along with other findings by G Sokolovas are what Coley (and others) are speaking of...

"Recommendation: Coaches should optimize aerobic training during this "sensitive period" (11-13 years for females/12-14 years for males) to maximize athlete's aerobic development. It is suggested that pre-pubescent athletes (ages 9-12/14) focus on longer distances (i.e., longer repeats and longer competitive events) for reasons related to both skill development and aerobic capacity development."
"Recommendation: Coaches need to first develop the athlete's aerobic capacity and then gradually increase anaerobic load for maximum development of anaerobic capacity."
Link: http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/ViewMiscArticle.aspx?TabId=505&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en-US&mid=858&ItemId=914

You can "burnout" on any kind of stimulus. Most kids quit swimming because their results aren't matching their commitment to the sport. Coley's kids could clearly swim more yards. Those who choose swim more yards holding the same type of intensity without sacrificing distance per stroke or stroke rate will get faster. But that's all crazy talk...nobody actually keeps track of that stuff, right? We only count yardage. Those "aerobicly-based" programs who are pounding the life out of their kids with high intensity / high yardage / high stroke rate / low DPS have a much steeper road to tread in my opinion. Certainly not an impossible road, but the road is steep.

this is funny

http://www.floswimming.org/videos/play/7643-the-strength-of-usa-swimming

Those who hate on people having their own ideas... please re-visit the bob bowman vid... the strength of USA Swimming. Case Closed.

6 NAG records in one year in 3 different age groups, and age groupers (one was 12) making trials, and you're calling him an idiot? clearly something is working for them.

If his kids are fast at a young age, who says they will burn out? Sounds like they're not doing any yardage anyway so they only have room to grow...I'd say swimmers are more likely to burn out in a distance program anyway, and his kids seem to be having fun.
Phelps/Beisel/Beard/Hoff were all pretty good at 15 and under if I recall.

Let's now define USA Swimming:
Everyone with a membership.
If there is something you disagree with: get informed, get involved, become a part of the solution.
There is no tower in Colorado that sends down the edict that all must follow. Voice and vote are available to every single member.

I can attest that Coley is definitely not an idiot. Fast is fast. It does not matter what age you are. 26.39 Long Course 50 M Free is fast no matter what age. Most college coaches would love to have that kind of speed.

I have been a coach of competitive swimmers for 15 years and the kids that were fast at age 10 were the fast ones when they go older. Burn out is a consequence of lack of improvement. Coley's swimmers keep getting faster.

yeah kids who do engaging workouts that keep them interested in every single stroke they take is way more likely to burn them out than one of those high volume = great aerobic based programs.
Want more good athletes in this sport? Introduce them to programs like this one.

This guy is clearly an idiot! Who cares how fast a girl is at age 12 or a boy is at age 10? Ok, so he found some talent. Let see them in 10 years. Can you say burn out?

I HATE THIS THE VID KEEPS STOPPING AT 2:31

THIS IS GETTING AGGERVATING
HAHA

I have met Coley before and in our brief (two hour airline flight) he came across as an intelligent, passionate coach very excited about the opportunity he has to work with his swimmers. We need this in our sport.

As far as his training and philosophy go, he makes some interesting points. I agree that you can never pay enough attention to technique. We differ in opinion about the importance of sprinting and endurance work. But going off the limited comments made about how much yardage they do(and maybe this was mentioned in other comments rather than in his actual interview) and actual in the water work, it sounds like we do very similar amounts of total yardage with our 13 and unders. We also have an excellent variety of dryland work.
This said, we continually have far greater success in the distance events as compared to the sprints. Coaches peridically ask me how much distance work we do to keep having such a large percentage of our swimmers doing so well in the long races. They are suprised to hear how relatively little. Our swimmers swim well in distance because our coaches believe in and enjoy those races. We make them a normal part of being on our team. Also factor in that we always swim them at the championship meets as opposed to many other events only during the season. I am sure it is just the opposite for Coley's team with sprints happening to a greater degree at the big meets.
Long story short, your kids are going to believe what you sell to them if you sell it well. Until there is a lot more definitive evidence that shows one way is purely the best way to do it, I am going to do it my way. And applaud anyone who does it successfully in whatever fashion they make work.
Keep up the great job Coley!

For those interested, this is the methodology by which USA Swimming measures clubs:

http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/DesktopDefault.aspx?Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en&TabId=898

Interesting question. But I think we need to delve a little deeper.

How do we measure the "top 5"? Currently USA swimming measures clubs in a way that does not take club size into effect, so typically you will see large clubs (1000+ swimmers) at or near the top of the rankings. What about some sort of measure that looks at the actual efficiency of club programs. I would be interested to see the results of such a measure.

what are the top 5 age group teams in the US?

what are they doing?

I'm aware the Paul Bergen is one of the most accomplished and well-respected coaches in the history of the sport. I was being sarcastic. hense the smiley face, you gump.

From a physiological standpoint Coach Stickels is creating strong neural pathways early in his swimmers careers. The swimmers bodies are learning proper technique AND proper rate for 50/100/200 swims. If you listen to him talk about time in the water and TIME ON LAND each swimmer reaches really that aerobic baseline.

What they are learning to do is swim fast first, you can do that. When you train overload (or aerobic) first speed comes later. When you train speed first the distance comes later... this can happen, and will happen with athletes that, as they get older, become more inclined to greater distances.
With that said, he may never have milers but he will be setting his swimmers up very well for college. The philosophy he is currently on focuses on speed. How do you get better... go faster, get stronger. He is creating a base of technique then adding speed, then will add volume (I'm sure to a certain point), before his swimmers are ready to enter college.

Shades of Dave Salo....but in that case the uproar was generated by the publication of Sprint Salo. In reality, his coaching was much closer to the mainstream than indicated in his book.....proof that in the real world creative coaches will change over time as they become more experience or are challenged by different kinds of athletes. As stated elsewhere, there is no "magic dust" in swimming.
Personally, I am most interersted in the dry land component that they use at this program....one of the real challenges that we face in training kids, and I mean everyone not just the elite, is generally poor level of athletic fitness of the average age group swimmer. As a result we need increase dryland training to supplement their generally poor level of fitness

I cringe whenever I hear people say aerobic base. Aerobic base is a term that is only used by the swimming community. It is not found in physiology literature. VO2max is the term that means aerobic power. VO2max is basicially the efficancy of the cardiorespiratory system. A person acheives their peak VO2max around the age of 20. People can improve their VO2max by 2-25% during a season, depending on their fitness levels at the beginning of training (the lower the fitness level, the greater the improvement). 50% of gains made during the season are lost after about two weeks of inactivity. Prolonged periods of inactivity (8 weeks or more) will result in all gains being lost. Therefore, you cannot develop an "aerobic base" at a young age to use for the rest of your career. Aerobic training, as well as anarobic training, must be done at all levels to maximize physiological adaptations and performance.

I think the larger question is how many kids are responding to this sort of training. If you look at the USA Swimming Virtual Club Championship results, it seems like LOSC has some very talented kids. How many kids are on the team? In looking at the VCC Results, LOSC is ranked 266th Nationally and 4th in their LSC for the period of September 2008 to now SCY. How many good kids must a coach have for his approach to be considered valid?

A statement I have agreed with for a long time is that a coach is only as good as his least accomplished athlete. The question I would ask would be would be how has this approach affected the entire team, not just a few talented athletes. Is this a way to go for the development of the aerobically/distance minded athlete?

As far as the team to team bashing, please. There is a lot of good stuff going on in Oregon. The Oregon teams should collectively be proud of how they represent vs. the rest of the country. I for one would also like to see some of these workouts and sets so my kids could give them a try.

Bergen is Sean Hutchinson's mentor among others

if a kid starts training like this at the age of ten, then who says by the age of 14 or 15 that they don't have a good enough "aerobic base". how do you exactly judge this mysterious aerobic base?

Technique then Speed then Aerobic capacity
Finally, a coach that agrees with me!

His kids are all still young so you have no evidence that they will be burning out. Different kids respond to different coaching strategies. Sugar coating every might send the wrong message to kids. He is just honest with his kids and i think they respect him for that....

69

"the kids are always engaged" what a great concept. they don't have to be grown ups to care about what they're doing in the pool. i love this fresh approach.

way to go Coley

When do we get to see some workouts?

I think that is a very valid point, from what Ive experienced its more up to the swimmers approach to getting better any how

former.
nuff said

Hey i am done debating, but no my mom is NOT writing these for me, she thinks it's (Flo) is an unsafe website.

Whatever I accept it, LOSC is fast, real fast! No matter what I can argue, Coley's program works, they are going fast!
P.S. I thank you Coley for having Floswimming come to you, it just expands the great things Floswimming covers.

don't believe the hype

I think all the potential at Lake Oswego Swim Club is young (16 and under). Lets wait two years and see where the team is then.....

is your mom writing these for you?

-Listen to the guy

haha omg i feel like every single article on this site turns into a competiton between which club teams are better... who cares? you guys are arguing over two teams that like maybe five other people on the site have even heard of. so please stop its annoying.
ps fun fact inge de bruin had one of the only two olympic records not broken at the beijing games in the womens 100 fly (ian thorpes 400 free was the other)
pps. whos this paul bergen guy? never heard of him, he must have been a pretty bad coach. :)

Inge DeBruin was juiced and that was like 8 years ago. Morgan Scroggy got fast at Georgia, and Morgan Henderson-Kunz is huge.

scoreboard baby!

LOSC beat the girls, not the guys (girls; 11th guys; 4th) and THSC is the best in oregon, just take a look, has LOSC or anyother club in Oregon created anyone near a Morgan Scroggy? Or Morgan Henderson-Kunz? Does LOSC attart world class swimmers for an International Meet, Remeber Inge De Bruin? She was coach by former THSC head coach Paul Bergan. I think Inge was a multiple Olympic Gold Medalist?????

O.K. N.F.S. I think that you won't be good if you have no aerobic base but you have speed, when you are comparing that swimmer to a sprinter with an aerobic base. The fact is you can't swim like that forever, if Dara Torres only did thi kind of training when she was an age grouper no doubt she would of been faster, but only for a short time, she definetly would not of been able to make the (2008) team if not for some kind of pre-exsiting endurance.

Take the example of weights, if you watch the "Fall at Auburn" and listen to the weight coach's explaination on how some swimmers come to them "maxed out," when dealing with weights, it is the same idea, when in college they will be maxed out, or the same kind of training won't be as beneficial.

Coley did not get lucky with these swimmers. In fact if you look at he has fast swimmers in the 11-12 girls, 13-14 girls, 13-14 boys, now the 15 and over swimmers are getting faster. LOSC beat THills at Senior Sectionals so for THills to claim they are the best team in Oregon is a stretch. I believe that 6 National Age Group records in the 3 different age groups shows that Coley did not get lucky. He is the most creative coach going in my opinion, and the critics are going to eat their words in a few years. Give the man some talent and see what he produces, all of his swimmers are short except one. I think the results show this is not some fluke or lucky experiment. This group looks better in the water than any program I have seen.

What if basketball coaches decided not to concentrate on the right way to shoot a jump until the players were full grown? Doesn't make a lot of sense, because if they develop bad technique habits while surviving that 8th 800 now those are habits that will be harder to break if you wait to correct them. Why would they lose their technique while they grow?

im not criticizing anything, just asking... how do we feel about making technique such an important part of the training, "the center of the bulls-eye," when the kids will experience growth spurts and other type of bodily changes that will force them to rethink their technique completely in a couple years? obviously technique the most important thing, but to me it would make more sense to focus a little more on the speed and endurance at this point, and then wait until their bodies are a little more matured until you start REALLY focusing on it so that they already have the speed and endurance after their growth spurt/puberty. Im not a coach or anything but it seems like hours of specific technique work with eleven year olds will be pretty much wasted if in 3 years their arms are each a foot longer!

That's the point!!! There is more than one way to climb the mountain. So just because their training doesn't look the same doesn't mean it's wrong. And didn't Coley send a 14 year old to trials in the 200 IM? So again Andre, why are the LO swimmers going to swim slower in college?

Well N.F.S. what Micheal and Katie did for training was not realated to what LOSC is doing, none of thier impressive swimmers can swim more than 200 meters, not that they are bad swimmers they just arent getting the proper training for those events. I think Micheal and Hoff swam not sprints? Maybe he swam the 200 fly and she swam th 400 IM? For those events you need an aerobic base. Even for sprinters you need a solid aerobic base, a lot of college coaches that are on Flo state that they don't need to work on their areobic base because they got those in high school. Bob Bowman was not doing training anywhere near what Coley is doing with his athletes, Michael broke onto the national/international scene in the 2000 Olympic Trials, in that race he was 4th at the 150 but had the fastest last fifty of anyone in the field (30.02) to swim the 200 butterfly you need a solid aerobic base, but to have a better last 50 than the former world record did, you need an amazing aerobic base. So dont compare their training to LO's because they were different.

He wasn't handed these athletes. Here's a bio.

http://www.lakeoswegoswimclub.org/Coaches/tabid/63/Default.aspx
He's been around the block.

What about the theory that treating kids as if they are mature athletes will breed mature athletes?

You're telling me that swimming as fast as possible at a age 14, hurts your chances of swimming as fast in college? Where's your evidence. Hoff and Phelps are proof that a different approach works, not proof that this one doesn't. I fail to see where this inevitable drop off will happen. And why?

I think my point was, is that to be successful with specific training you need very mature swimmers and thats why most club coaches dont use it.

I don't get all the criticism of this kind of workout. I personally am a distance swimmer and my training is what you would call "old-school" i.e. tons of yards, aerobic base, etc. But if this works for them, which it obviously does, who cares if its different?

The accepted wisdom is: aerobic base is the most important thing for age group swimmers.

But who has really tried something else? Maybe Coley doesn't have the perfect new answer but he's trying something different in a really well thought out manner.

Hey y'all. After looking at there times it is obvious to see quite a drop off from the 50(23.1) and 100 (50.63) to the 200 (1:53) and 500 (5:17). I don't think the aerobic base can be overlooked. Just a thought to keep in mind. Strength and speed can always come after physical maturity, but being physically fit is important so that they can be added as time goes on.

JJ-I like your response with accountability in practice. I believe it's important to mix things up, switch the kids around from distance - sprint, stroke to IM and back again. Throughout workout, it's important to remind kids on how to race, be competitive both mentally/physically and when to relax.

I have no issue with kids learning how to be fast, especially when we have athletes representing our sport like Phelps, Hoff, etc. It's important that we teach good workout ethics, prepare the parents for a lifestyle change and most importantly, how to enjoy the sport on an everyday basis.
I bet if you ask anyone of those kids on the speedy team what their thoughts are regarding their performances...they would say "bring it on and bring more of it."

I understand this approach, but disagree with it somewhat. I think that Coley may be overdeveloping his swimmers in the sprint events and not allowing their bodies to build an aerobic base. Late teenage years would be a more appropriate age group for those to specialize. Technique is important, but at some point, a foundation needs to come first.

this guy has great insight into swimming and kids and the results to prove it works....wish he was my coach

I think that everyone needs to realize one very important point.

Coaches are not going to let Garrett into their pools to film their workout if they consider the fact that their team's video will be up to ridiculous critique every 15 minutes -- as publicly as public can be.
Here's a coach, Coley -- who has some very good kids. And he's not irresponsible. He's got a plan. They've set some records. Why can't we watch the video, learn a little or throw it out -- who cares. They'll be another one tomorrow.....Maybe.
Coley, keep it up. You got the coach thing down. Like Dr. Suess said: "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

Great questions Garrett and great interview. Thanks for sharing.

Now I know Coley and what he does with his, no doubt, supremely talented athletes, and I can tell you that LOSC trains for one thing and one thing only, that's speed. Now this should be obvious because he has said it many times, but we have to read into what speed means; speed means you are fast, but the question is when? For his athletes he is training them to be fast NOW and not in college, or thier peaking level. This training that they do is no doubt producing fast swimmers, but young fast swimmers, ones that without the proper training won't be preforming up to their potential in the long run.

Those are my problems with his training style and it was the biggest reason I choose to stick with my team, THSC (Tualatin Hills Swim Club). Our team which is the best team in Oregon trains a totally different way, we are a IM/Distance oriented group (I am talking about our age groupers). Training the way I train I fully believe that my full potential will be reached in college, where it should be. But taking nothing away from Coley and his program, which I admire.
One thing is that I really do hate is being beat by his swimmers which for our guys doesn't happen that much (LO's 13-14 girls are much stronger than the guys). No one can question the talent of any of their swimmers, but the question is can they be fast when they are older, beacuse their training being used for their age is an uncertain thing, but training an aerobic base at the age group level is what the best do, i.e. Micheal Phelps, Aaron Piersol, Kitajima, etc.

What I like about Coley's philosophy is that technique is the basis of the training. Time and time again those programs who work the details and show efficient technique also show great results. It doesn't surprise me that Coley's swimmers are fast, he's a bright guy with an opinion and experience to back it up.

o ya creighton prep represent

i know this is off topic but when is that swim movie supposed to be coming out???

Old Fart is right on. They are doing very well right not, but when they get older they won't have the base they need. I hope Garrett gets an interview with Eddie Reese on this subject. Eddie knows exactly what young swimmers need. I read one of his USA swimming articles talking about how the age groupers need their base work. This guy got very lucky and sounds like he was handed tremendous talent. I couldn't disagree with this video any more.

I agree with JJ I've had countless coaches throughout my 18 yrs of swimming no one coaching or training style is the "magic dust" that makes average swimmers olympians. Its truly how mentally engaged you are when you are training. The reason its rare to see this in club swimming is it's hard to get children and teenagers to develop the mental compasity to use the entire practice to get better and not just the really challenging things that get done maybe 3 times a week, thats not the only reason this is rare but its a big one.

I will say though having a more yardage based program where good technique is the first thing enforced does help the transition to the high volume most under-classmen do in college swimming. When I came out of college I swam 200 free 500 free and 400 i.m. I finished this year 100 free 200 free 2 i.m. and I train with all 50 and 100 guys now where i was in distance as a freshmen. I am able to do this now almost exclusively from the technique and aerobic base I built during high-school and my first 3 years of college.

pretty impressive 13-14 girls from what i can tell.

http://oregonswimming.org/timesdb/?season=0809&gender=f&agegroup=1314&distance=100&course=y&stroke=1

the bottom line is that Coach A could have a "distance" oriented program and coach B could have a "sprint" oriented program and they both could suck because you can do 10 x 1000s slowly or 10x25 slowly. Auburn is successful because they do 10x25s with incredible mental and physical effort with a coach that holds them to the highest level of accountibility. Mission Viejo is successful because they do 10x1000 with incredible mental and physical effort with a coach that holds them to the highest level of accountability.

So the common denominator is that coaches hold kids to a higher standard with high expectations and that coach is going to have a successful program.
Swim asked what the best age group programs are doing in the country and that is holding their athletes to the highest standard. Go to Sectionals, Far Westerns, Juniors, etc. and ask coaches that have severl kids in finals of every event and they will each tell you something different about how they train. But they will all tell you that their expectations are high and the push their kids to achieve their potential.

Times can be found here: http://oregonswimming.org/timesdb/

They're obviously LOSC in the database.

Well I think I can answer a couple of your questions...

I believe one of the best programs in the country right now is City of Plano (located near Dallas, Texas). Their 15-16 boys broke two national age group relay records. I know a couple people on that team and they tell me that most of their training is distance/IM oriented. This approach has proved to be very effective in getting the swimmers to the national level but also getting them prepared to have a excellent college swimming career.

The only thing i worry about is if this catches on were're probally going to see many younger kids but 15 and up will decline becouse doing something like that for such a long time,they beome tire of it and become unintrested. Also sholder isuess later on i klnow some kids at the age of 15 already having sholder issues.

Good interview.

i think a middle ground is best, a lot of time kids that do lower yardage when they are young do not improve from their times as teenagers, while in college. The same goes for kids who did too much yardage when they are young and are unable to improve in college.

How fast are the athletes that swim on this team? I know that Lake Oswego has a few NAG records in the relays on the SCY side (just looked it up). But I'm not too sure about individuals they've got right now.

Other questions:
What are the top age group programs in the US doing right now?
Who are the top age group programs?
How do you judge if an age group program does the job well?
Can we compare this team at Lake Oswego with another team, for instance - and Garrett this is for you -- how similar to KING is the LAKE OSWEGO age group team?

This speed based program works very well, and many teams with mainly aerobic and threshold workouts are also very successful (Mission Viejo, NOVA, Arden Hills, etc.). So if you do it right, either way works.

Coming from a team that might be pegged as "distance oriented", just watching Lake Oswego kick butt at Sectionals the past few years has really inspired me to improve my coaching and try new things. Keep up the good work Coley...teams and coaches might differ philosophically, but everyone respects the fast swim!

amen

I first want to congratulate Coach Stickels on discovering his method of finding success for his swimmers. It is outstanding when a young coach figures this out and gets kids fast and motivated. The rest of my comments are not about coach Stickels, but maybe about an unintended consequence of what could happen in choosing only one possible route of success for a young athlete. Maybe someday the left and right of swimming will figure out they need each other to be successful. The claims of this particular coach that USA swimming endorses one type of development over another are unfounded. USA swimming endorses professionally coached programs that develop fast swimming. How about if we all jump off our particular high horses and concede to the fact, yes fact, that the best swimmers are the ones with a great combination of fitness, technical proficiency, and a willingness to sacrifice things to achieve success. Technique and speed are not a new concept for age groupers, it has been a great marketing tactic to many "crosstown" rivalries since the sport began. I'm sure there is an opinion very near to this team that says an aerobic base is the way to go. You are both right as far as kids going fast, you are both wrong as far as selling to our young athletes that the other way is ineffective. Garrett, lets get out of texas and the northwest for a while. Head down for a club tour of California or Florida or Illinois, or Indiana. You will see that it is the same everywhere. Lets not encourage the next generation of coaches to oppose each other, but lets get them learning from each other that they need a tool kit with everything in it. Every swimmer is a different puzzle piece on a team and there is no "one" fit that works accross a team. That is the fun part of coaching. There are kids that will not survive well in any given program that thinks one way. That is why kids go to other teams or ultimately leave the sport. Lets keep promoting all the different ways of doing things without allowing ourselves to puting down the methods of others. Our country has great swimming coming from every region, teams big and small, and will continue to do so if we keep from the dangers of doing things "one" way.

This guy knows where its at...watching those guys train is a mind blowing. their technique and control of the water is untouchable. ive never seen kids that young train and explode through the water like that. they're freakin machines. not to mention their athletic base out of the water. their overall agility is imperssive (core strength, balance, speed off the line, vert. jump, footwork etc). these guys have one mentality: be #1.

Impressive program Coley...no doubt

Results are what speak and from what his swimmers have shown it is workingfor them and his club...... Good for you Coley. Garrett and workouts from your visit to Lake Oswego????

the proof is in the results - this is obviously working for them...kudos to Coach Coley for developing a cutting-edge training program. Impressive that his team has accomplished so much with it's not-so-big size and a not so impressive facilities.

We will! And our own Garrett McCaffrey will be in it!

so let's see a WWW from him.

Yeah, but what about the kids who would have been pretty good swimmers who were drived out of the sport because some "Old Fart" wanted to give a 12 year old boy an aerobic base, going 6,000 yds a practice??? Duuuuumb...

Especially because the young kids don't have the physiological mechanisms to build an aerobic base. It's complete BS for young kids to "build a base" at 10 & 11.
This guy is smart. He's encouraging enthusiasm for the sport, he's keeping the kids engaged, and he's not pounding out future sprinters. Great philosophy, Good video.

Did you listen to the first question? All those teams and coaches were dealing with grown swimmers, mostly men. Coley is working with kids as young as 12...

Haven't we been down this road before.....trying to "do more with less". Seems like it was all the rage in the late 80's thru the mid-90's......and basically times stagnated (at the senior level).

Look at the Urbanchelk interviews...."There are no short cuts!!"

what is so new about this-bottom/cal/hall&ervin;/the race club did this years ago...

Just look at Auburn, they have won the last 6 out of 7 NCAA titles and still people laugh at them. Everybody wants more yardage! I like coley's plan.

i like the way coley thinks! i came from an age group program that never put in more than 5000 yards, no mornings, and plenty of sprinting and technique work. i can definitely say that it was more fun and i saw a lot of friends quit the sport because they swam on clubs that swam them into the ground. i also saw the opposite, kids that were swimming upwards of 3000 a day and swimming really fast, as well as getting to college and swimming even faster due to heavier training loads. i think they were able to handle those training loads due to reaching physical maturity. maybe it cannot be achieved by swimming age groupers into the earth, but rather just the passage of time and keeping them in the sport.

Now you have opened yourself up to a world of hate. Just keep it down, nobody wants to hear they are wrong!

3000 - 4000 seems a little short for high level swimmers even if they are 11-14 yrs old...how long is practice 1.5 hours in the water max?

Coley-- shhhhhh! don't tell everybody --

3000-4000 a day

What i am not getting from this video is a sense of what is TOO much yardage? When training all "speed work" with age group swimmers (11-14yrs old), what is the average daily yardage? How often do they do Dry land?

vid cuts off at one second for me

Coley,

Where were you when I was growing up?