It looks like FINA is starting to hear what the bloggers and commenters are saying. Please click the link and vote in the most important poll in swimming history (on the right side of the page.) The poll is open until january 1st 2010. Let FINA hear how you really feel about suits!!
"The suit manufacturers are in no way at fault." "It's totally unfair to say that somehow FINA screwed this up."
Hmmm. Looks like there's no one left in the room to take responsibility for this mess.
I totally agree David. FINA needs to step up and take responsibility, so do the suit companies. As far as I'm concerned, I'd have much more respect for everyone if we can admit we've made a mistake and need to settle this manner in a FAIR, RESPECTABLE manner. Not a wishy washy answer that just leaves the swimming community angry.
Anonymous Coward said: “We have bypassed weekends to go to long meets, we have woken up when the stars are still out to swim, and we have worked so hard. The least FINA could do is let us have any little advantage we can have to aid us in our goals.”
You're absolutely right. While we're at it , I think it's garbage that I can't wear zoomers when I race. I work pretty hard, and they can at least let me see how fast I could really go. Next thing you know I'm not gonna be able to take HGH (as if they would ever catch me).
Anonymous Coward said: “I still have not seen one good argument for the suits. Every other sport placed a limit on technology, why shouldn't swimming?”
Placing a limit on technology is the whole point, but that isn't what FINA has done. They tried to establish a scientific baseline, but before the tests were fully developed through scientific methods (developing the methodology, publishing it, letting others try to reproduce the results) they started banning suits. What's more, the major issue that John Leonard mentioned was compression and his defense was that the test is too new, too complex and too expensive to use currently...except that later in the interview, when Garrett asks about air trapping effects, the same excuse of tests being very complicated is used to justify FINA's rule that suits "may trap air."
So we know (sorta kinda maybe since we have no publicly published methodology or data) suits that may trap air, do we know suits that may compress?
My point is that limits are a good thing, except these aren't limits. They aren't standardized or equally applied. Suit tech should be allowed to grow and evolve, just as every other sport that either uses or is based on equipment, but within limits.
I think it is wrong to even be discussing this. As swimmers, we have all sacrificed so much in our lives to achieve times. We have bypassed weekends to go to long meets, we have woken up when the stars are still out to swim, and we have worked so hard. The least FINA could do is let us have any little advantage we can have to aid us in our goals.
Plus, it is much too late to even consider banning certain suits. These fast suits have been coming out for years now, and many thousands have worn them. Don't we want the sport to keep going forward and not backward? Where is the sense in that, when basketball players get spring-loaded shoes, golfers get new, state of the art clubs, and soccer players get lighter shoes? Do they really want us to go backwards? Why would they keep these from us when we are a sport on the rise?
Can you get an answer from FINA on the following:
If air can get into a suit inadvertently why can't it get out the same way, therefore the fact that it can get into the suit in the first place makes it impossible to be entrapped, unless they are saying the swimmer is putting the air into the suit before or while they swim. I guess I just don't get it.
Another question would be that if FINA wants to go back to the good ole days, why stop at prior to 2000? Why not go back to Mark Spitz days and not allow goggles, which anyone who knows anything about swimming knows definately enhances the swimmers ability to move faster through the water.
Dave, You are right on the mark with your point about the swimmers being left out. After all they and their families are the ones left in the cold with suits they have invested in and can't use. If FINA admits to making a mistake and not getting ahead of the issue, why do the swimmers have to be the ones to suffer financially? Many of the suits that are now banned were bought when FINA had their heads up their butts. Why any ban wait until these suits run their course until at least Jan 2010? I don't think as many people would be as upset.
One of the key statements in this interview is around 18:45—"FINA is trying to conform to what the majority of the the people in the swimming world want, which is a move back to a more basic suit..." Who and where is this "majority" Mr. Leonard is talking about? Who and where are all these people? I have not talked to a single swimmer who wants to get rid of the new suit technology and return to the "a more basic form of suit". There may be a few out there, but there is no way these people form anything remotely approaching a majority. The vast majority of swimmers want to keep the suits and just keep moving forward.
A second key point here is the question of what constitutes permeability. All materials are permeable to some degree. Materials technology is going to produce all kinds of fabrics that will act like non-permeable material but pass any permeability test that lycra, nylon, or polyester can pass. Then what?
So Chris: said: “You said "The only people that distract from the athletes performance are the people that complain about the suits."
My question remains. When you hear a record is broken - or see or hear about any swim that knocks your socks off - "I wonder what they were wearing" isn't one of your first thoughts?”
You said "The only people that distract from the athletes performance are the people that complain about the suits."
My question remains. When you hear a record is broken - or see or hear about any swim that knocks your socks off - "I wonder what they were wearing" isn't one of your first thoughts?
It seems like swimmers are being totally left out of this. The old fogey coaches want to get rid of these suits because it has exposed them for what they are- uncreative and unable to adapt to the changing swimming world around them. Coaches who have ridden the wave, like Brett Hawke, and found a way to coach better with these suits are fine. It probably drives these old guys crazy that Brett is so successful, and they think that taking away the suits will allow them to squeeze out a few more years. Unfortunately, change is a coming, and I think who we think of as the greatest coaches in the world is going to change dramatically over the next few years.
Anonymous Coward said: “Seriously Chris, when you hear a record is broken - or see or hear about any swim that knocks your socks off - "I wonder what they were wearing" isn't one of your first thoughts? I don't know anyone who doesn't think that almost immediately - be it a coach or swimmer.
I happen to be a coach. When my 58 breastroker goes a 56 with the suit and breaks our team record of 57, I know that the 57 kid was better - so does the kid that went 56. If we want to judge the 56 kid on his own merits, that's fine. But when you start talking about the record you automatically bring in the discussion of why or if one is more impressive than the other.
Beating an older record with a new suit is like getting a meet record in the first year of a meet. Yeah, you've got to be good to win, but the fact you've got the record doesn't say everything.”
So do you believe that right now we have dozens of butterflyers in the US that are better than Mark Spitz? Or was Mark at a disadvantage, training in an era when there were no goggles (technology) that limited his performance. I can understand sentimentality over records, I really like records and the stores behind them to. But lets be honest, our sport has never been about the records, many of which are broken frequently, whether there are "suits" or not. A 56 100 breaststroke isn't what it used to be, and I don't really care. I'm not tied to what was a good swim in one era as the gold standard that we should defend. Every sprinter on my d3 team could "beat" Johnny Weismuller! That doesn't make any of us actually better than him!
That is the most rediculous reason for questioning the suits being used in swimming. Because Michaael Phelps wasn't chosen as athlete of the year. And FINA racted because journalists thought it had to do with the suit. Give me a break. Didn't everyone else Phelps raced against have on the same suits. In addition, the suit Phelps used is on the approved list, so how does this change solve that issue? FINA must be one of the most inept bunch of beureaucrats in the world.
Anonymous Coward said: “
"Beating an older record with a new suit is like getting a meet record in the first year of a meet. Yeah, you've got to be good to win, but the fact you've got the record doesn't say everything."”
The flip side is, after the ban of high tech suits, the current batch of records will stay a long time. If the 2012 London game ended up like the 96 Atlanta game with very few WR, that would hurt the public standing of swimming more. Swimming is a low profile event in the US to begin with. Just think what kind of coverage swimming will get at NBC when Michael Phelps come away without a single new WR :-). Waht would FINA do then? I bet the high tech suits will make a come back with vegeneance.
Chris DeSantis said: “The only people that distract from the athletes performance are the people that complain about the suits.”
Seriously Chris, when you hear a record is broken - or see or hear about any swim that knocks your socks off - "I wonder what they were wearing" isn't one of your first thoughts? I don't know anyone who doesn't think that almost immediately - be it a coach or swimmer.
I happen to be a coach. When my 58 breastroker goes a 56 with the suit and breaks our team record of 57, I know that the 57 kid was better - so does the kid that went 56. If we want to judge the 56 kid on his own merits, that's fine. But when you start talking about the record you automatically bring in the discussion of why or if one is more impressive than the other.
Beating an older record with a new suit is like getting a meet record in the first year of a meet. Yeah, you've got to be good to win, but the fact you've got the record doesn't say everything.
Anonymous Coward said: “I have two questions for all the pro suit people. What gives you evidence to suggest that the new suits increase popularity in the sport? My personal opinion is that it just distracts from the athletes accomplishments. And second, what is lost by going back to the old suits? Yes times will temporarily get slower, but when the east Germans were all doping should we have just said, "well, now that the doping is started, let's just let everyone do it."”
The only people that distract from the athletes performance are the people that complain about the suits.
I have two questions for all the pro suit people. What gives you evidence to suggest that the new suits increase popularity in the sport? My personal opinion is that it just distracts from the athletes accomplishments. And second, what is lost by going back to the old suits? Yes times will temporarily get slower, but when the east Germans were all doping should we have just said, "well, now that the doping is started, let's just let everyone do it."
Hey guys, I'm old school,I believe college athletes should actually attend college not just drop in to compete. But now we have the SUIT POLICE! Check out the US Open policy. The're going to have a SUIT check in! Anyway, Set a standard on materials, then give the companies an reasonable amount of time to make changes. Don't just drop the bomb and say you win/you lose and everyone who has your suit has wasted $500. It is obvious that Mr. Leonard really didn't know the details of the testing,when he should have. Science does not rely on one person to test anything ,it is a collaborative effort as Mr. Leonard mentioned. There is only one SLIGHT difference, the collaboraters know something, they are usually other scientists. This whole testing and FINA decision process and decision appear totally flawed. Too bad.Now they have to backtrack and clean up the mess,which is bigger than wearing a cool,fast suit!
I notice Craig Lord has strong opinion that the committee judging the entrants for the Laureus sport person of the year are made of mainly of track & Field writers. Craig, you feel the sports has been done an injustice, those making the decisions were biased toward the "track guy". I feel you should write more and more about this and the wrong doing of a biased committee. So all of you I ask this "Who decided the suits" who was there that day when Leonard was not? do they have affiliations that may give bias? they may not, but it suits Journalists to write about it when it causes harm to their world.So, come on Craig, lets look into this situation, for Laureus, For Swimsuits and for fair play.
Matt Emmert said: “The suits may not be the "Wangs" of the past, but it is ironic that they did nothing until after the Olympics. My humble opinion, they (Anti-Suit Community) should relax. Is Tiger Woods using the same club that Jack Nickaulus did? Is Sidney Crosby skating on the same skate or using the same stick that Wayne Gretzky used? Is Kobe Bryant playing with the same shoe that Michael Jordan used in his first championship?
The answer to all these is NO! I'm not a fan of cheating, but I am a fan for technology which enhances our athletest that will increase popularity of the sport.
Just keep with the policy you had prior to the Olympics. It's not as difficult as everyone wants to make it or percieve it. Suits were allowed and should be allowed, but just SET STANDARDS!
We've allowed these suits to exist during the Olympic year and we've seen our sport grow more than ever before. But now, people want to abolish them just because records are being broken exponentially. I understand that, but it helps with the sports growth.
LET SWIMMING GROW with the Suits!!!!
The "Pre-Suit" Times won't be the same, but YES they will. Leave those times go and let's move on and support our sport to grow with Technology much like golf.
Bottom line people need to stop hating and live in the 21st Century Swimming Community!”
David Guthrie said: “Who is flying this plane? I'm telling you, FINA has NO ONE qualified at the controls and they are causing irreparable damage to the sport. They have no idea how to protect the "brand" now that Phelps has taken it to new heights. The answer to the suit controversy is not to ban the suits, but to define a clear approach to digesting new technologies.
The history of swimming's administration is extraordinarily paternal, kind of like beauty pageants for little girls. That must change. It's time for swimmers to step up and take ownership of our sport.”
Word. FINA has a collection of bureaucrats deciding on the sport's purity, "advised" bu someone who makes an utter fool of himself in an interview with Garrett (who did an excellent job of allowing Leonard to unwittingly repeatedly contradict himself).
The issue should not be technological advancement in suit design, but rather a level playing field and suit availability. FINA is behind the curve, and the clock is ticking...
The framework needed for bio feedback relies in part on non-textile fabric. Much harder to build a bio feedback suit with textile. How would FINA test for bio feedback? Answer: it can't. Textile is much easier to regulate, I'm told
The biggest difference B70 and Jaked made is the off-wall speed. With these suits, you can travel faster and farther off each turn and save energy for the swimming part.
just wondering said: “Can anyone tell me how a non-permeable fabric actually enhances performance? I understand how things like buoyancy and compression help, but I don't get why it makes a difference whether or not the suit allows water to pass through.”
But it does make a difference if air can pass through. FINA has taken the stance that they don't want suits to be able to trap air. Trapping air creates buoyancy.
The fabric itself may be neutrally buoyant, but if air is trapped between the swimmer's body and the suit the end result is positive buoyancy.
To me the logical conclusion would have been to allow, or even mandate that all race suits should be made of non permeable materials. Keep the thickness below 1mm, no bio feedback, then you have a more or less even playing field with regards to suits.
Availability and price would need to be addressed however. These things are way too expensive, and as shown before the Olympics, very hard to get at times.
I mean how much more will a suit really help? Unless there are materials out there that accelerate through the water by themselves, I don't think there would be a huge difference from what's currently available.
Sure there would be some more records broken, but you wouldn't have the controversy surrounding the existing records that have been broken in the Blueseventy, Jaked and even the LZR's.
To slow the sport down on purpose to satisfy the world media is silly.
The suits in small part have helped the sport of swimming get continually faster for over 10 years, but it's obviously not just the suits. Training, coaching, diet, competition, and a myriad of other factors affect the performance of an individual.
Does every swimmer have access to all of the same tools that a highly funded elite swimmer gets? Doubt it, so it's not really an even playing field before the suits enter the picture.
Can't imagine Thorpe would've been too happy to have to give up his custom made arm suit one month out from the Olympics or World Champs.
Can anyone tell me how a non-permeable fabric actually enhances performance? I understand how things like buoyancy and compression help, but I don't get why it makes a difference whether or not the suit allows water to pass through.
That tennis thing is just silly. Alex has nothing to lose to let the whole thing go: he lost his last record a while back and has nothing to prove: four Olympic gold medals, remember. Just as Alex and Janet had no say in the start of all this, they ultimately have no say in the way out of it. Their advice is listened too and decisions are taken on that basis. When you hear stuff like more than 60% of Olympic athletes say yes when asked in one survey whether they would take doping if it guaranteed them a gold medal without being caught, maybe best not to ask the athlete too much while they are still in the race
David Guthrie said: “Let's imagine that a new racquet material like carbon fiber was poised to enter the tennis industry. Should Pete Sampras be the one deciding what racquet Ferderer and Nadal are allowed to use as they chase his record?”
Tennis is an equipment based sport. Swimming is a technique based sport. You insinuate that suits are equipment, and equipment has no place in competition. Suits should compliment human performance, and as soon as suits are viewed as equipment they begin to enhance performance, and I don't think thats what any (honest) athlete truly wants.
Let's imagine that a new racquet material like carbon fiber was poised to enter the tennis industry. Should Pete Sampras be the one deciding what racquet Ferderer and Nadal are allowed to use as they chase his record? He may or may not be qualified, but there's an obvious conflict of interest that would influence any human being in that position. Evans and Popov are no different. Putting stars on these committees because they are stars is just window dressing—totally superficial.
It's not hard to imagine why two former stars would try to arrest the evolution of the sport. They have their legacies to protect.
If someone took an inventory of all of the people "in charge" of swimming—the ones running the show and calling the shots from the local to international levels—it would be horrifying to see how many have no swimming knowledge or experience, or any other obvious reason to be involved except to enjoy a position of authority.
Chris DeSantis said: “So back in April of last year, when her sponsor Speedo looked poised to dominate the market, Janet thought it was just the progression of technology. Now she says we should go back to '96?”
Maybe she changed her tune after her 800 free WR went down.
Bomb the suits said: “If everyone is happy to make swimming a freak show and have kids racing in suits that affect their neural response - and such things have been patented and such things have been placed on the FINA table ”
John actually addressed this before we turned on the camera, and he said that they've already put rules in place against such "pain free" suits. I'd be really interested to hear what evidence you have that such suits "have been placed on the FINA table".
18 it is...but just 5 for Alex and is anyone saying that Janet somehow lost her mind and swimming sense since retiring in 1996...think not. You should all be asking why Janet and others changed their mind over the last six months. SwimNews has touched on it a few times: the technological direction this is heading in is uncontrollable. If everyone is happy to make swimming a freak show and have kids racing in suits that affect their neural response - and such things have been patented and such things have been placed on the FINA table - well, why not create a second sport and leave swimming to those who it for what it is: efficiency of human movement in water with no external influence allowed, neither in pharms nor anything else.
Who is flying this plane? I'm telling you, FINA has NO ONE qualified at the controls and they are causing irreparable damage to the sport. They have no idea how to protect the "brand" now that Phelps has taken it to new heights. The answer to the suit controversy is not to ban the suits, but to define a clear approach to digesting new technologies.
The history of swimming's administration is extraordinarily paternal, kind of like beauty pageants for little girls. That must change. It's time for swimmers to step up and take ownership of our sport.
So back in April of last year, when her sponsor Speedo looked poised to dominate the market, Janet thought it was just the progression of technology. Now she says we should go back to '96?
Here's what Janet had to say, still sponsored by speedo, about the latest round of suits in April of last year:
"I think the new suits are an interesting development in our sport. The athletes that compete in them talk about how fast they feel and how the suits make them feel buoyant. While some complain that this might not be the best thing for our sport ... they think that suits should just be plain old suits ...
I feel that it is simply a technological advancement. By the next Olympics in London, there will be another suit that is better and faster!"
A lot of people don't know this, but when Mark Spitz competed, they had not yet invented a low profile goggle. So Mark could only train for 2 or 3 hours a day without goggles. When goggles were "invented," swimmers could train longer hours, and all of Mark's records were broken. So, once again, it was simply a technological advancement in our sport"
Then in May of this year she had dramatically changed her opinion:
"I thought their [FiNA's MAY 19 LIST] decision sat somewhere in the middle, Personally, I'd love to see suits go back to the way they were in 1996 with little bits of progress.… I'm worried that it's really changing the sport"
Mr Berkoff says Alex and Janet have been gone for a combined 30 years. He needs to do his math: Alex retired 2004, Janet 1996. I make that 16 years together. Both have a valid take on the current situation. And as for balance, FINA could also go the other way: why did they not call in the men who have been filing patents in the US and can prove that suits can be made to influence the neural system, men who have filed patents that people representing Speedo are constantly monitoring to know which way to jump next. The only way is to stop that trend. Swimming became more popular because of Phelps at al, not the suits and records.
Unfortunately, there was no counterbalance, Viking. If John is to be believed, the two most prominent athlete voices involved were Janet Evans and Alex Popov- two swimmers who have been against any kind of tech suit.
tallswimmer said: “John Leonard is actually one of the most outspoken critics of FINA I've ever met. ”
but he is also one of the most outspoken critics of suit tech as well... he has been calling for the suits to be banned since the release of the FS1. He is very knowledgeable, but maybe not the right guy to have on the commission to find a fair solution. I hope there was someone on the committee just as outspoken as him for the other side of the argument. Leonard's presence can dominate a discussion.
Matt Emmert said: “ Is Tiger Woods using the same club that Jack Nickaulus did? Is Sidney Crosby skating on the same skate or using the same stick that Wayne Gretzky used? Is Kobe Bryant playing with the same shoe that Michael Jordan used in his first championship? ”
I think that analogy is flawed. The sport of golf wouldn't exist without golf clubs. Ice hockey wouldn't exist without ice skates. Those pieces of equipment are essential for the sport.
In swimming, we don't need full length body suits that enhance performance. We got along just fine for a century of Olympic swimming without performance enhancing equipment, there's no need to introduce them now.
I think there's a huge difference between body suits and basketball shoes. No one one would ever suggest that an NBA team won a game because of the shoes they're wearing. But what if Trickett had out touched Steffen in the 100 free at Beijing? Every rational person would've wondered if Steffen would've won if she'd been wearing a LZR instead of the inferior Adidas suit. Although it's great to see world records being broken, the loss of a level playing field is enough of a reason to remove these suits from the sport.
I honestly think that suits make our sport just that much better. Even though the times are dropping in insane amounts, thats what makes it so much fun to be at these championship meets and wonder how fast can people go. I know the prices are insane, but if everyone has one, which I would say that many people do, then its fair game. I was at YMCA Nationals in April and I would say that about 95% if not more had on one of the new suits. Maybe not a Blue 70 or a Lzr, but they might have had the tracer ( i think thats what its called, ) the new TYR suit, or a suit that had the same qualities as these suits. For example, Tim Phillips went 46.95 in his 100 fly! Insane! Has anyone ever seen a high school athlete do that? Probably not. But let me say it was mighty impressive to see just how fast can people go. Why would you want to keep seeing people going around the same time for the next 10 years or so without the suits. The goal of the sport is to improve!
The suits may not be the "Wangs" of the past, but it is ironic that they did nothing until after the Olympics. My humble opinion, they (Anti-Suit Community) should relax. Is Tiger Woods using the same club that Jack Nickaulus did? Is Sidney Crosby skating on the same skate or using the same stick that Wayne Gretzky used? Is Kobe Bryant playing with the same shoe that Michael Jordan used in his first championship?
The answer to all these is NO! I'm not a fan of cheating, but I am a fan for technology which enhances our athletest that will increase popularity of the sport.
Just keep with the policy you had prior to the Olympics. It's not as difficult as everyone wants to make it or percieve it. Suits were allowed and should be allowed, but just SET STANDARDS!
We've allowed these suits to exist during the Olympic year and we've seen our sport grow more than ever before. But now, people want to abolish them just because records are being broken exponentially. I understand that, but it helps with the sports growth.
LET SWIMMING GROW with the Suits!!!!
The "Pre-Suit" Times won't be the same, but YES they will. Leave those times go and let's move on and support our sport to grow with Technology much like golf.
Bottom line people need to stop hating and live in the 21st Century Swimming Community!
John Leonard:
Began his coaching career in Syracuse NY
Moved to Lake Forest Swim Club and Lake Forest College in Illinois
Currently coaches at SwimFast in Fort Lauderdale FL http://www.swimfastteam.com/headcoach.html
Thank you Garrett, for brining us information regarding how FINA has been coming to these decisions. Regardless of the results of the rulings, I think that there has been a lot of confusion about how the organization has been handling this suit issue.
Personally, the thing that I found the most interesting was right in the beginning when John said that FINA for the most part has a few people making rules and changes. The suit commission is something new and different to the organization. Shouldn't everything that a commission such as FINA does involve a lot of input from people and organizations from around the world?
Also, I am wondering, if these same suits had come around more gradually, as the paper suit turned into the Aquablade to the Fastskin, etc, would we all be debating so strongly? The permeability factor is new, but all this nonsense about air trapping? The suits have been doing that for a long time. There has to be progress, otherwise we would still be swimming in woolen suits, no goggles and caps with chin-straps like my grandmother wore.
True enough Tallswimmer. And to answer the last question, John is actually the Executive Director of the American Swim Coach Association, a member of the USA Swimming International Relations Committee and a representative to the FINA Coaches Commission. Calling him a representative of FINA is a bit of a stretch though he does serve in a volunteer capacity. http://www.swimmingcoach.org/
Anonymous Coward said: “And which company had the market before 2008? Speedo, without a doubt, benefits the most if we go back to fabric suits and even more if we go back to jammers with no "engineering" allowed.”
I'm not so sure about that. Compare the 100m freestyle at Beijing where everyone wore the LZR, to the 2007 World Champs. Magnini, Schoeman, Neethling in Arena, Hoogenband, Lezak in Nike, Cielo, Sullivan, Hayden in Speedo.
i completely agree, personnally im more concerned about my highschool states this upcoming year, to be competetive everyone is wearing the suit and many people are still gonna buy one if they are available even if they are pretty much guarenteed to be banned by january, and if they are legal but basically all sold out those that have one are at an advantage over those who dont because they arent available --> which that unavailability thing even happened to me this year and sucked cause about 90 to 100 percent of people in top 8 had a tech suit and like 80 to 100 percent had one in top 16 varying on the event.
I think they should but a complete ban on all the technical suits until they have made a final decision on what is legal and what is not and have done all of the tests on the suits.
Afterall, those who say its the swimmer not the suit thats doing the time shouldnt have a problem with that cause then the suit the swimmer is wearing shouldnt matter at all- even if its just a textile suit.
Anonymous Coward said: “But for this one summer, you have to buy one or not be in position to compete fairly.”
And which company had the market before 2008? Speedo, without a doubt, benefits the most if we go back to fabric suits and even more if we go back to jammers with no "engineering" allowed.
Speedo will not pull what they did last summer! There swimmers
will have to meet with everyone of the fina stipulations regarding LZR.
So more of an even playing field for the other companies, such as tyr
and especially Arena big pockets there. Arena is set for this showdown!!
Anonymous Coward said: “I think everyone needs to chill about the Speedo conspiracy theories.... The LZR is still going to be gone in half a year anyway....”
But for this one summer, you have to buy one or not be in position to compete fairly.
Overall I've got to say I'm pretty impressed with Leonard's answers. He sure doesn't come across as a dope to me. In most respects I agree with him. This is not a simple issue. Not everyone is going to agree. Swimmers aren't going to agree. Different national federations are not going to agree. Manufacturers are not going to agree. FINA has a difficult task here. Ultimately I'll be happy with whatever FINA decides as long as I'm satisfied the rules are clear and testable. They aren't there yet, but I'm hopeful they're heading that way. Yes, Speedo got a stay of execution by FINA not changing permeability requirements until 2010, but if Leonard is correct about the only permeable materials allowed rule then Speedo will also have to alter the design of their top-level suit.
wow said: “This is their best representative? I don't understand. Fina really needs to rethink who they are having defend their process.”
John Leonard is actually one of the most outspoken critics of FINA I've ever met. While I don't believe he always has the swimmers' best interests at heart on other issues, over time I've come to believe he knows his stuff on this topic. Furthermore, he's never afraid to stand up and say how he feels to your face, as opposed to staying behind the cloak of anonymity we enjoy here (I know I'm guilty of this too).
Before I really knew how FINA worked, I thought that getting them to create a change was a democratic straightforward process like what we enjoy in the US. After experience though, I've come to discover that it is pretty much a oligarchy, and the vestiges of democracy they present are just token gestures to satiate the masses. For a long time they ran the show without much regard for the desires of the masses or the best interests of the body they were supposedly representing (athletes). Like any non-democratic government, however, they can be overthrown by the people, so keep making noise, and change will come, even if it's slower than we'd like.
The fact that Mr. Leonard contradicted himself several times and gave some very weak reasons and answers just makes this whole thing stink even more. Really? FINA didn't realize that the use of a completely different material on suits would have a big effect? That is not only weak, but just plain stupid. I'm not going to assume anything, but this whole situation smells REALLY bad now.
Oh and DeSantis, props on possessing the ability to pull up crucial information like membership increase at the drop of a hat.
Interesting to here John Leonards perspective on the process, as well as to read the conspiracy theorists spin on what he said. I still struggle with understanding how anyone can honestly argue for the Tech suits. Without them there are many choices of suits and the playing field is level as far as suits go. With them,if they are all universably available(which is a big if) the playing field is level at a 300-700 dollar additional expense. If you think that the suit makes you go fast and are willing to pay the expense because of it then I think you are missing the point of the sport. If you think that the suits are not really what is making the fast swims then why pay the extra 300-700. If you think that you have to wear the suits to remain competetive because everybody else is then that is something that the governing body can legislate out without everyone spending all the money.
The suits do not improve safety or any other socially or morally redeeming factor. They only make suit companies richer. You can argue that that helps pay our professional swimmers but that is a handful of people, statistcally insignificant compared to the number of you families that will be driven out of the sport by the expense.
I realize that there are always the haves and the have nots in every society but do we have to keep finding ways to divide the world financially. If a suit came out that guaranteed performance enhancement that cost $1000, should we allow it? $10,000? Should we create ( or allow to continue) a situation where you can or have to buy your swimming success. This problem essentially began in 2000 with the first long suits that raised the cost considerably while, I believe, not improving performance significantly, and then escalated this past year . It could get much worse.
Everything you got in to swimming for is still there without the high priced suits. All you have to do is follow the blogs to see what we get with the high tech suits. Fast times will come with or without them as will champions.
Weird FINA guy is also at the top of ASCA and on our USA Coach's education DVD among other places.
Connecting the dots...I am not going to 'SAY' FINA screwed up... Really John?
Micheal Phelps personality? Apparently he only watches swimming every 4 years like the rest of the world. Share the deck with him, hangout with people who have trained with him and you will change your story pretty quick. I can think of, oh, just about every other NT member to put ahead of this guy as "Mr./Ms. Personality".
This whole thing is making my brain hurt.
And if there are no non permeable materials onb suits, then the lzr would be done in 2010. FS Pro and Tracer Light type suits only? Maybe buy an aquablade for trials in 2012?
Alex and Janet? No bust on Janet or Alex because they are great people, but those two have been out of swimming for a combined 30 years. That is NOT athlete representation. Athlete representation should include currently competing athletes who have the pulse on their cohorts.
I agree that John's statement that Phelps' not receiving athlete of the year by the media triggered the anti-suit movement is a bit weak. Who frickin cares what the universal media thinks. 90% of those folks can't even swim! However, every able-bodied person can run. There's always been a bipedal bias in the media--see, e.g., football, baseball, basketball, tennis, etc in the US.
If not getting what is essentially a silly trophy based on hearsay and rumor is the reason for getting rid of the suit technology, we are really in trouble!
garret: how are swimmers suppose to have sponsors if their is no market for suits?
strange fina guy: if the market is big enough, companies will emerge
WHAT?
Garrett, great questions...ubelievable way to get the guy to contradict himself and get pretty clear cut evidence that FINA has a bias toward Speedo...one question I would've like to have seen asked (in some way, shape, or form)...
"You said earlier that the main reason FINA decided to get a committee together to start regulating on suits was because the media downplayed Phelps' accomplishments because he was wearing the LZR. By banning almost every hi-tech suit accept for the LZR, it still gives Phelps the opportunity to wear that suit and have the media question his accomplishments again. Therefore, it seems like you either did not accomplish the goal you set out to do or there was another underlying factor involved that was the true spark for having FINA call together the committee. Can you expand upon this?"
John's answer..."I'm not here to talk about specific suits."
Garrett is a genius. I don't know if it was intended to have this effect or not, but it seems like rather than inform people as to the situation and "explain" things, this video has just made the FINA guy look like an idiot, which of course most people already know...
I'm pretty sure all of the bubbles i let out of my lazer in warm ups signifies air trapping. I was wearing legs and my suit felt full, then i let the air out and refit it and it stuck to my legs very tightly and felt like it fit and didn't get water in it or drag me down. Maybe I'm just ignorant because i don't have a fancy lab.
I want my child to grow up to get DUI's and Drug scandals. This guy is your stereotypical ed American, please get someone that knows swimming. How is masters swimming any different from competitive swimming? The same goal he stated for masters swimming is pretty much the same essential goal for competitive swimming. Someone please get a new fina board that aren't from the time of wool suits?
Psychic said: “why would any smart company involve themselves in a market where the governing body arbitrarily changes the rules every 6-12 months...”
This one can work both ways, though. On the one hand the manufacturers must constantly change their designs, on the other swimmers must constantly buy new suits to stay in compliance with the rules!
That point about Phelps makes no sense, swimming became more popular because of the new suits the media loved it! If everyone is in suits then it is fair, just like every other sport. Why delay evolution of sport?
Why the hell did they do this to worlds then!?! I am sick of these fat directors of federations being able to dictate what happens with the suits. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ACTUAL SWIMMING. Let the swimmers decide.
why would any smart company involve themselves in a market where the governing body arbitrarily changes the rules every 6-12 months...
FINA has done a great thing, yet again put a system emplace that will limit sponsorship opportunities and a means to make money/become a professional athlete. hats off boys, the damage that you guys have done is nothing in comparison to the damage you will do - allowing you guys to be captain of this ship is like handing over the reigns to a 6 year old boy hell bent on have 'his way'
usaswimming seems to be a little bit better organized than fina so why doesnt usaswimming do some of their own testing and at least come up with there own rules for usa meets instead of just tagging along with fina. i think usaswimming could better decide which suits should be allowed due to economics, performance etc than fina is or is able to.
i dont know what he is talking about with air trapping i am pretty sure i can feel my lzr trap air...
greatest personality ever in the history of our sport in michael phelps? Maybe the greatest accomplishments, but definitely not the greatest personality.
His comments clearly show that there wasn't any scientific evidence about rejecting some suits for the so called "air trapping" effect.
Appears it was done simply because a few extremely talented individuals chose to use those suits to break a few world records.
Had they not done so, would anyone from Fina care about the B70 or Jaked? Probably not.
Of course the 100+ WR's done in LZR's are fine. Yeah right...
Can't wait to see the ad campaigns for race suits next winter:
"The Speedo LZR Lite - Guaranteed to do nothing for you, will not improve your times at all, but it's legal!!"
Sales should skyrocket!!
ComeOn said: “look at this guy, i doubt he ever was an elite level swimmer. What FINA should do is send a survey to anyone ranked top 50 or 100 or w/e in their events and just have a vote. New suits or no? Full bodies or No? From all the top swimmers i've talked to, very few actually like the suits and would prefer to go back to just jammers or at the most leg suits.”
I disagree. Most of the top level guys like the suits as long as they can wear the same thing. Which brings me to my point. Why did Schubert and others make such a big deal about the Jaked when France was breaking world records. Does he not realize that the SAME THING happened last year when the LZR came out, then when US Trials came around, we smashed almost every record??? If Schubert is worried about the suits being ludicrous at least wait for US to race in them and obliterate records like everybody else.
look at this guy, i doubt he ever was an elite level swimmer. What FINA should do is send a survey to anyone ranked top 50 or 100 or w/e in their events and just have a vote. New suits or no? Full bodies or No? From all the top swimmers i've talked to, very few actually like the suits and would prefer to go back to just jammers or at the most leg suits.
Anonymous Coward said: “Involvement by the athlete is tricky. When I hear Trent talk about Aaron, he's right. Aaron is a popular athlete and could be great. But who speaks for the 18-under athlete - which make s up the vast majority of the swimming population. It may better for pro athletes to be able to wear these high tech suits - which they don't pay for, but it can't be considered better for college programs, high school programs and jr national level athletics. It seems that athlete representation means different things.”
You are totally right. Athlete representation means different things at different levels. Each LSC is required to have 20% representation come from the athletes themselves... thank you 1970s version of Ted Steven. At the USA Swimming House of Delegates, the Board Level and every committee this same rule holds true and we have athletes serving in roles that are appropriate to their experience and their interest. As my swimming career progressed, so did the committees on which I was a member.
At the FINA level, we are talking about athletes who have seen it all and swum from age group to the Olympics. Another thing to keep in mind, the rule of 20% and our American system which takes interest (usually) in the thoughts of the athlete, is rarely seen internationally. We should be thankful that for every rule change USA Swimming makes, athletes are in the room. Democracy isn't the same around the world but we are working towards athletes and coaches both having a bigger voice in our sport.
Interesting viewing. What this confirmed for me with the whole suit issue is that FINA really are making as bad a job out of solving the problem as I fearer they were. Despite what John sets out to communicate I believe even more so now that the list of 'approved' has been drawn up anecdotally based on the opinion of a small number of key stakeholders, crucially this includes Speedo. There are several contradictions here along with constant changing of position on a number of questions, these guys are making it up as they go along without much consideration for the far reaching consequeneces for the wider swimming community.
I thought Garret provided some great moments there- how he managed to bite his tongue when faced with some laughable responses I'll never know, but it made for excellent viewing.
Distraught said: “I would compare it to middle age guys switching from baseball to softball. It is a great way to stay active and have fun but more laid back and relaxed rules than true baseball.”
I think a lot of masters swimmers will vehemently disagree with this. I swim masters and don't appreciate it being marginalized like this. The only rule I can think of that is different in masters is that you're allowed to use a breaststroke kick for butterfly and that's because of historical precedent rather than to make it more "laid back." Look, most of us in masters realize we aren't elite swimmers anymore--if we ever were--but that doesn't mean we treat it like a beer league, either.
But this is a little off topic, so carry on... :)
And, yeah, the comment about not wanting to hurt manufacturers, then turning immediately and saying FINA isn't in the business of hurting or helping suit manufacturers is pretty amazing.
Involvement by the athlete is tricky. When I hear Trent talk about Aaron, he's right. Aaron is a popular athlete and could be great. But who speaks for the 18-under athlete - which make s up the vast majority of the swimming population. It may better for pro athletes to be able to wear these high tech suits - which they don't pay for, but it can't be considered better for college programs, high school programs and jr national level athletics. It seems that athlete representation means different things.
Chris DeSantis said: “"How do we know a majority of athletes wanted this when not one current competitive athlete was included in the proceedings?"”
That is a good question Chris and while I do think that Alex and Janet did a good job becoming informed and participating in this process (you know I also agree with their perspective), change is coming.
In April Aaron Peirsol's name was put forward to the International Relations Committee as our nominee to the next FINA Athletes Commission. He was approved and passed to United States Aquatic Sports, the body that all american aquatics (US Synchro, US Diving, US Polo, US Masters, USA Swimming) fall under. The other sports also had an opportunity to submit nominees but Peirsol was unanimously supported as the Athlete nominee from the United States.
This doesn't ensure that Aaron will be named a member of the FINA Commission but I have a hard time coming up with a more universally liked aquatics athlete. He is smart, articulate and well aware of the current state of International swimming and I am excited for his voice to be heard at that level on this and many other topics.
Here's some objective data: By USA Swimming's own numbers, membership of year round athletes saw a 2% spike in 2008, despite the fact that the suits are ruining our sport. And before you say "Olympic Year", realize that membership actually declined 1% in 2004.
The point is that now we don't have to speculate. We have it straight out of the guy's mouth. You're right, there's nothing roundabout about it, and yes, it is something new, because now we have evidence straight out of someone on the suit committee's mouth! Oh and further, with the whole incident being sparked by Phelps wearing the LZR and not getting athlete of the year, how can FINA use that as justification to start banning suits and then subsequently not ban the LZR? Great job, John!
Distraught said: “Nice spelling Coward....even with it written above. Another intelligent responder.
AND, responding to below....everyone believes Speedo and FINA are together, not anything new. Leonard goes back and forth carefully because what he really means is, "if we do away with certain material, or change the rules too drastically and/or too fast...ALL suit companies (speedo or not) will sue us for every last penny. It is not that FINA doesn't want to hurt companies, it is that they don't want to finish themselves off.”
I'm sorry I spelled your name wrong Mrs. Leonard. But thanks for continuing your support for Johnny and clarifying his statements.
Nice spelling Coward....even with it written above. Another intelligent responder.
AND, responding to below....everyone believes Speedo and FINA are together, not anything new. Leonard goes back and forth carefully because what he really means is, "if we do away with certain material, or change the rules too drastically and/or too fast...ALL suit companies (speedo or not) will sue us for every last penny. It is not that FINA doesn't want to hurt companies, it is that they don't want to finish themselves off.
Garrett: “Why not just do away with the permeable material right now”
John: “Because being unfair to the companies who have already got lots of product out there that they have already manufactured. This is not the suit companies fault…that we have this sort of stirring about in the swimming community. They’re just doing what they’re supposed to do which is make money for their stockholders and conform to the rules that exist at the time.
Garrett: “You say that you don’t want to hurt the suit companies who are using permeable or non-permeable material. What about the suit companies who may or may not have understood the air trapping part of it?
John: “FINA is not in the business of either helping companies or hurting companies. They should be in the business of setting the appropriate rules, clear, simple, that are easily followed.”
Does anyone else not see the paradox of this statement. John basically says FINA doesn't want to harm companies who have money invested in these suits (i.e. Speedo), yet he uses the statement that FINA will not help or hurt companies and that they're "rule settes" as justification for harming other "non-Speedo" companies...
Does he not in a roundabout way imply that maybe people are right, that there is a Speedo bias within FINA?
Distraught said: “Did anyone who commented below even watch the video? It looks more like they just saw the topic and posted a comment. I thought the video was quite informative and stuck mostly to factual info with good support.
As for his personal view on Masters and tech suits...I agree they are different. Masters swimmers aren't fighting for scholarship dollars or a big sponsorship. I would compare it to middle age guys switching from baseball to softball. It is a great way to stay active and have fun but more laid back and relaxed rules than true baseball.”
Did anyone who commented below even watch the video? It looks more like they just saw the topic and posted a comment. I thought the video was quite informative and stuck mostly to factual info with good support.
As for his personal view on Masters and tech suits...I agree they are different. Masters swimmers aren't fighting for scholarship dollars or a big sponsorship. I would compare it to middle age guys switching from baseball to softball. It is a great way to stay active and have fun but more laid back and relaxed rules than true baseball.
blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah January one. blahblahblahblahblah january one. blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah garrett still trying to defend blueseventy. blahblahblahblahblahblah trap air. blahblahblah trap air. JANUARY ONE.
Thanks John for your history. I still think the 2010 non-permeable rules are not a good idea. Plus, why is the suit committee limited to a handful of people. Shouldn't this be a larger body and include athlete representation--this is, afterall, a sport about the athletes.
With regards to air trapping...getting air in your suit is one of the most annoying feelings in a race. It just shifts and moves as you swim and provides no benefit, why else would swimmers buy suits that fit soo tightly. That theory is total bs that fina has made up to try and justify their banning of certain non-speedo suits.
"... companies will emerge" only to have FINA knock them down unless they are Speedo.
Great job Garrett. You single-handedly showed the bs involved here. Thank you John for giving us conspiracy-theorists our proof. Absolutely unbelievable.
I think its interesting that John both says he is in favor of the suits for masters swimming because it puts more people in the water, but doesn't think that they attract more people in the non-masters population.
Also, where did John and the other members of the committee draw the conclusion that the majority of people want a rollback? How do we know a majority of athletes wanted this when not one current competitive athlete was included in the proceedings?
That was a huge non-answer on the air-trapping. "May trap air"??? Have you worn a LZR?? I think it's safe to say the LZR "may trap air" Here is a member of the commission saying that FINA had no actual test for air-trapping - that's coming later - but FINA decided to use air-trapping as a reason to get rid of Speedo's competitors.
"Fina is not in the business of helping or hurting companies"? Didn't he just give a spiel about not wanting to hurt companies (ie speedo) by not letting them sell their stock of suits that they spent so much money on?
Argggghhhhhh!!!! I hope that when B70 takes FINA to court, they use this video as evidence.
I sat down with John Leonard, who was a member of the FINA Suit Commission, to get the lowdown on how the FINA suit decision went down. Hopefully this explains things for you like it did for me. June 9, 2009
Front Line Of The FINA Suit Fiasco 
http://swimviking.blogspot.com/
Hmmm. Looks like there's no one left in the room to take responsibility for this mess.
I totally agree David. FINA needs to step up and take responsibility, so do the suit companies. As far as I'm concerned, I'd have much more respect for everyone if we can admit we've made a mistake and need to settle this manner in a FAIR, RESPECTABLE manner. Not a wishy washy answer that just leaves the swimming community angry.
“We have bypassed weekends to go to long meets, we have woken up when the stars are still out to swim, and we have worked so hard. The least FINA could do is let us have any little advantage we can have to aid us in our goals.”
“I still have not seen one good argument for the suits. Every other sport placed a limit on technology, why shouldn't swimming?”
So we know (sorta kinda maybe since we have no publicly published methodology or data) suits that may trap air, do we know suits that may compress?
My point is that limits are a good thing, except these aren't limits. They aren't standardized or equally applied. Suit tech should be allowed to grow and evolve, just as every other sport that either uses or is based on equipment, but within limits.
I bet he get's the ladies...
Plus, it is much too late to even consider banning certain suits. These fast suits have been coming out for years now, and many thousands have worn them. Don't we want the sport to keep going forward and not backward? Where is the sense in that, when basketball players get spring-loaded shoes, golfers get new, state of the art clubs, and soccer players get lighter shoes? Do they really want us to go backwards? Why would they keep these from us when we are a sport on the rise?
Can you get an answer from FINA on the following:
If air can get into a suit inadvertently why can't it get out the same way, therefore the fact that it can get into the suit in the first place makes it impossible to be entrapped, unless they are saying the swimmer is putting the air into the suit before or while they swim. I guess I just don't get it.
Another question would be that if FINA wants to go back to the good ole days, why stop at prior to 2000? Why not go back to Mark Spitz days and not allow goggles, which anyone who knows anything about swimming knows definately enhances the swimmers ability to move faster through the water.
Hmmm. Looks like there's no one left in the room to take responsibility for this mess.
A second key point here is the question of what constitutes permeability. All materials are permeable to some degree. Materials technology is going to produce all kinds of fabrics that will act like non-permeable material but pass any permeability test that lycra, nylon, or polyester can pass. Then what?
“You said "The only people that distract from the athletes performance are the people that complain about the suits."
My question remains. When you hear a record is broken - or see or hear about any swim that knocks your socks off - "I wonder what they were wearing" isn't one of your first thoughts?”
My question remains. When you hear a record is broken - or see or hear about any swim that knocks your socks off - "I wonder what they were wearing" isn't one of your first thoughts?
“Seriously Chris, when you hear a record is broken - or see or hear about any swim that knocks your socks off - "I wonder what they were wearing" isn't one of your first thoughts? I don't know anyone who doesn't think that almost immediately - be it a coach or swimmer.
I happen to be a coach. When my 58 breastroker goes a 56 with the suit and breaks our team record of 57, I know that the 57 kid was better - so does the kid that went 56. If we want to judge the 56 kid on his own merits, that's fine. But when you start talking about the record you automatically bring in the discussion of why or if one is more impressive than the other.
Beating an older record with a new suit is like getting a meet record in the first year of a meet. Yeah, you've got to be good to win, but the fact you've got the record doesn't say everything.”
“The only people that distract from the athletes performance are the people that complain about the suits.”
“
"Beating an older record with a new suit is like getting a meet record in the first year of a meet. Yeah, you've got to be good to win, but the fact you've got the record doesn't say everything."”
“The only people that distract from the athletes performance are the people that complain about the suits.”
I happen to be a coach. When my 58 breastroker goes a 56 with the suit and breaks our team record of 57, I know that the 57 kid was better - so does the kid that went 56. If we want to judge the 56 kid on his own merits, that's fine. But when you start talking about the record you automatically bring in the discussion of why or if one is more impressive than the other.
Beating an older record with a new suit is like getting a meet record in the first year of a meet. Yeah, you've got to be good to win, but the fact you've got the record doesn't say everything.
“I have two questions for all the pro suit people. What gives you evidence to suggest that the new suits increase popularity in the sport? My personal opinion is that it just distracts from the athletes accomplishments. And second, what is lost by going back to the old suits? Yes times will temporarily get slower, but when the east Germans were all doping should we have just said, "well, now that the doping is started, let's just let everyone do it."”
“The suits may not be the "Wangs" of the past, but it is ironic that they did nothing until after the Olympics. My humble opinion, they (Anti-Suit Community) should relax. Is Tiger Woods using the same club that Jack Nickaulus did? Is Sidney Crosby skating on the same skate or using the same stick that Wayne Gretzky used? Is Kobe Bryant playing with the same shoe that Michael Jordan used in his first championship?
The answer to all these is NO! I'm not a fan of cheating, but I am a fan for technology which enhances our athletest that will increase popularity of the sport.
Just keep with the policy you had prior to the Olympics. It's not as difficult as everyone wants to make it or percieve it. Suits were allowed and should be allowed, but just SET STANDARDS!
We've allowed these suits to exist during the Olympic year and we've seen our sport grow more than ever before. But now, people want to abolish them just because records are being broken exponentially. I understand that, but it helps with the sports growth.
LET SWIMMING GROW with the Suits!!!!
The "Pre-Suit" Times won't be the same, but YES they will. Leave those times go and let's move on and support our sport to grow with Technology much like golf.
Bottom line people need to stop hating and live in the 21st Century Swimming Community!”
“Who is flying this plane? I'm telling you, FINA has NO ONE qualified at the controls and they are causing irreparable damage to the sport. They have no idea how to protect the "brand" now that Phelps has taken it to new heights. The answer to the suit controversy is not to ban the suits, but to define a clear approach to digesting new technologies.
The history of swimming's administration is extraordinarily paternal, kind of like beauty pageants for little girls. That must change. It's time for swimmers to step up and take ownership of our sport.”
The issue should not be technological advancement in suit design, but rather a level playing field and suit availability. FINA is behind the curve, and the clock is ticking...
“Can anyone tell me how a non-permeable fabric actually enhances performance? I understand how things like buoyancy and compression help, but I don't get why it makes a difference whether or not the suit allows water to pass through.”
The fabric itself may be neutrally buoyant, but if air is trapped between the swimmer's body and the suit the end result is positive buoyancy.
“The nonpermeable fabric is coated with rubber-like stuff to increase it bouyancy.”
Availability and price would need to be addressed however. These things are way too expensive, and as shown before the Olympics, very hard to get at times.
I mean how much more will a suit really help? Unless there are materials out there that accelerate through the water by themselves, I don't think there would be a huge difference from what's currently available.
Sure there would be some more records broken, but you wouldn't have the controversy surrounding the existing records that have been broken in the Blueseventy, Jaked and even the LZR's.
To slow the sport down on purpose to satisfy the world media is silly.
The suits in small part have helped the sport of swimming get continually faster for over 10 years, but it's obviously not just the suits. Training, coaching, diet, competition, and a myriad of other factors affect the performance of an individual.
Does every swimmer have access to all of the same tools that a highly funded elite swimmer gets? Doubt it, so it's not really an even playing field before the suits enter the picture.
Can't imagine Thorpe would've been too happy to have to give up his custom made arm suit one month out from the Olympics or World Champs.
“Let's imagine that a new racquet material like carbon fiber was poised to enter the tennis industry. Should Pete Sampras be the one deciding what racquet Ferderer and Nadal are allowed to use as they chase his record?”
If someone took an inventory of all of the people "in charge" of swimming—the ones running the show and calling the shots from the local to international levels—it would be horrifying to see how many have no swimming knowledge or experience, or any other obvious reason to be involved except to enjoy a position of authority.
“So back in April of last year, when her sponsor Speedo looked poised to dominate the market, Janet thought it was just the progression of technology. Now she says we should go back to '96?”
“If everyone is happy to make swimming a freak show and have kids racing in suits that affect their neural response - and such things have been patented and such things have been placed on the FINA table ”
The history of swimming's administration is extraordinarily paternal, kind of like beauty pageants for little girls. That must change. It's time for swimmers to step up and take ownership of our sport.
“ Alex retired 2004, Janet 1996. I make that 16 years together.”
not a big deal, but if ur gonna call someone out at least make sure ur addition is right
"I think the new suits are an interesting development in our sport. The athletes that compete in them talk about how fast they feel and how the suits make them feel buoyant. While some complain that this might not be the best thing for our sport ... they think that suits should just be plain old suits ...
I feel that it is simply a technological advancement. By the next Olympics in London, there will be another suit that is better and faster!"
A lot of people don't know this, but when Mark Spitz competed, they had not yet invented a low profile goggle. So Mark could only train for 2 or 3 hours a day without goggles. When goggles were "invented," swimmers could train longer hours, and all of Mark's records were broken. So, once again, it was simply a technological advancement in our sport"
Then in May of this year she had dramatically changed her opinion:
"I thought their [FiNA's MAY 19 LIST] decision sat somewhere in the middle, Personally, I'd love to see suits go back to the way they were in 1996 with little bits of progress.… I'm worried that it's really changing the sport"
“John Leonard is actually one of the most outspoken critics of FINA I've ever met. ”
“The goal of the sport is to improve!”
“ Is Tiger Woods using the same club that Jack Nickaulus did? Is Sidney Crosby skating on the same skate or using the same stick that Wayne Gretzky used? Is Kobe Bryant playing with the same shoe that Michael Jordan used in his first championship?
”
In swimming, we don't need full length body suits that enhance performance. We got along just fine for a century of Olympic swimming without performance enhancing equipment, there's no need to introduce them now.
I think there's a huge difference between body suits and basketball shoes. No one one would ever suggest that an NBA team won a game because of the shoes they're wearing. But what if Trickett had out touched Steffen in the 100 free at Beijing? Every rational person would've wondered if Steffen would've won if she'd been wearing a LZR instead of the inferior Adidas suit. Although it's great to see world records being broken, the loss of a level playing field is enough of a reason to remove these suits from the sport.
The answer to all these is NO! I'm not a fan of cheating, but I am a fan for technology which enhances our athletest that will increase popularity of the sport.
Just keep with the policy you had prior to the Olympics. It's not as difficult as everyone wants to make it or percieve it. Suits were allowed and should be allowed, but just SET STANDARDS!
We've allowed these suits to exist during the Olympic year and we've seen our sport grow more than ever before. But now, people want to abolish them just because records are being broken exponentially. I understand that, but it helps with the sports growth.
LET SWIMMING GROW with the Suits!!!!
The "Pre-Suit" Times won't be the same, but YES they will. Leave those times go and let's move on and support our sport to grow with Technology much like golf.
Bottom line people need to stop hating and live in the 21st Century Swimming Community!
do want athletes to show good judgement, this guy is
not the one!
Began his coaching career in Syracuse NY
Moved to Lake Forest Swim Club and Lake Forest College in Illinois
Currently coaches at SwimFast in Fort Lauderdale FL
http://www.swimfastteam.com/headcoach.html
“so as of right now what suits are actually allowed?”
Thanks to Darren to posting this link previously on Floswimming.
“John Leonard is the executive director of ASCA (American Swim Coaches Association).”
Personally, the thing that I found the most interesting was right in the beginning when John said that FINA for the most part has a few people making rules and changes. The suit commission is something new and different to the organization. Shouldn't everything that a commission such as FINA does involve a lot of input from people and organizations from around the world?
Also, I am wondering, if these same suits had come around more gradually, as the paper suit turned into the Aquablade to the Fastskin, etc, would we all be debating so strongly? The permeability factor is new, but all this nonsense about air trapping? The suits have been doing that for a long time. There has to be progress, otherwise we would still be swimming in woolen suits, no goggles and caps with chin-straps like my grandmother wore.
“And which company had the market before 2008? Speedo, without a doubt, benefits the most if we go back to fabric suits and even more if we go back to jammers with no "engineering" allowed.”
“But for this one summer, you have to buy one or not be in position to compete fairly.”
I think they should but a complete ban on all the technical suits until they have made a final decision on what is legal and what is not and have done all of the tests on the suits.
Afterall, those who say its the swimmer not the suit thats doing the time shouldnt have a problem with that cause then the suit the swimmer is wearing shouldnt matter at all- even if its just a textile suit.
are a european company but a very strong one.
“But for this one summer, you have to buy one or not be in position to compete fairly.”
will have to meet with everyone of the fina stipulations regarding LZR.
So more of an even playing field for the other companies, such as tyr
and especially Arena big pockets there. Arena is set for this showdown!!
“I think everyone needs to chill about the Speedo conspiracy theories.... The LZR is still going to be gone in half a year anyway....”
“This is their best representative? I don't understand. Fina really needs to rethink who they are having defend their process.”
Before I really knew how FINA worked, I thought that getting them to create a change was a democratic straightforward process like what we enjoy in the US. After experience though, I've come to discover that it is pretty much a oligarchy, and the vestiges of democracy they present are just token gestures to satiate the masses. For a long time they ran the show without much regard for the desires of the masses or the best interests of the body they were supposedly representing (athletes). Like any non-democratic government, however, they can be overthrown by the people, so keep making noise, and change will come, even if it's slower than we'd like.
Oh and DeSantis, props on possessing the ability to pull up crucial information like membership increase at the drop of a hat.
The suits do not improve safety or any other socially or morally redeeming factor. They only make suit companies richer. You can argue that that helps pay our professional swimmers but that is a handful of people, statistcally insignificant compared to the number of you families that will be driven out of the sport by the expense.
I realize that there are always the haves and the have nots in every society but do we have to keep finding ways to divide the world financially. If a suit came out that guaranteed performance enhancement that cost $1000, should we allow it? $10,000? Should we create ( or allow to continue) a situation where you can or have to buy your swimming success. This problem essentially began in 2000 with the first long suits that raised the cost considerably while, I believe, not improving performance significantly, and then escalated this past year . It could get much worse.
Everything you got in to swimming for is still there without the high priced suits. All you have to do is follow the blogs to see what we get with the high tech suits. Fast times will come with or without them as will champions.
Connecting the dots...I am not going to 'SAY' FINA screwed up... Really John?
Micheal Phelps personality? Apparently he only watches swimming every 4 years like the rest of the world. Share the deck with him, hangout with people who have trained with him and you will change your story pretty quick. I can think of, oh, just about every other NT member to put ahead of this guy as "Mr./Ms. Personality".
This whole thing is making my brain hurt.
I agree that John's statement that Phelps' not receiving athlete of the year by the media triggered the anti-suit movement is a bit weak. Who frickin cares what the universal media thinks. 90% of those folks can't even swim! However, every able-bodied person can run. There's always been a bipedal bias in the media--see, e.g., football, baseball, basketball, tennis, etc in the US.
If not getting what is essentially a silly trophy based on hearsay and rumor is the reason for getting rid of the suit technology, we are really in trouble!
“It is time for a poll!! What do the athletes really want!”
strange fina guy: if the market is big enough, companies will emerge
WHAT?
"You said earlier that the main reason FINA decided to get a committee together to start regulating on suits was because the media downplayed Phelps' accomplishments because he was wearing the LZR. By banning almost every hi-tech suit accept for the LZR, it still gives Phelps the opportunity to wear that suit and have the media question his accomplishments again. Therefore, it seems like you either did not accomplish the goal you set out to do or there was another underlying factor involved that was the true spark for having FINA call together the committee. Can you expand upon this?"
John's answer..."I'm not here to talk about specific suits."
Nice work, Garrett:)
“why would any smart company involve themselves in a market where the governing body arbitrarily changes the rules every 6-12 months...”
FINA has done a great thing, yet again put a system emplace that will limit sponsorship opportunities and a means to make money/become a professional athlete. hats off boys, the damage that you guys have done is nothing in comparison to the damage you will do - allowing you guys to be captain of this ship is like handing over the reigns to a 6 year old boy hell bent on have 'his way'
i dont know what he is talking about with air trapping i am pretty sure i can feel my lzr trap air...
Appears it was done simply because a few extremely talented individuals chose to use those suits to break a few world records.
Had they not done so, would anyone from Fina care about the B70 or Jaked? Probably not.
Of course the 100+ WR's done in LZR's are fine. Yeah right...
Can't wait to see the ad campaigns for race suits next winter:
"The Speedo LZR Lite - Guaranteed to do nothing for you, will not improve your times at all, but it's legal!!"
Sales should skyrocket!!
“look at this guy, i doubt he ever was an elite level swimmer. What FINA should do is send a survey to anyone ranked top 50 or 100 or w/e in their events and just have a vote. New suits or no? Full bodies or No? From all the top swimmers i've talked to, very few actually like the suits and would prefer to go back to just jammers or at the most leg suits.”
“Involvement by the athlete is tricky. When I hear Trent talk about Aaron, he's right. Aaron is a popular athlete and could be great. But who speaks for the 18-under athlete - which make s up the vast majority of the swimming population. It may better for pro athletes to be able to wear these high tech suits - which they don't pay for, but it can't be considered better for college programs, high school programs and jr national level athletics. It seems that athlete representation means different things.”
At the FINA level, we are talking about athletes who have seen it all and swum from age group to the Olympics. Another thing to keep in mind, the rule of 20% and our American system which takes interest (usually) in the thoughts of the athlete, is rarely seen internationally. We should be thankful that for every rule change USA Swimming makes, athletes are in the room. Democracy isn't the same around the world but we are working towards athletes and coaches both having a bigger voice in our sport.
Does that scare anyone else just a little?
Garrett seems pretty frustrated with this guy, at least towards the end, as am I.
P.S for Mr. Leonard: Jans MANSON, not "Jens Hansen"
I thought Garret provided some great moments there- how he managed to bite his tongue when faced with some laughable responses I'll never know, but it made for excellent viewing.
“I would compare it to middle age guys switching from baseball to softball. It is a great way to stay active and have fun but more laid back and relaxed rules than true baseball.”
But this is a little off topic, so carry on... :)
And, yeah, the comment about not wanting to hurt manufacturers, then turning immediately and saying FINA isn't in the business of hurting or helping suit manufacturers is pretty amazing.
“"How do we know a majority of athletes wanted this when not one current competitive athlete was included in the proceedings?"”
In April Aaron Peirsol's name was put forward to the International Relations Committee as our nominee to the next FINA Athletes Commission. He was approved and passed to United States Aquatic Sports, the body that all american aquatics (US Synchro, US Diving, US Polo, US Masters, USA Swimming) fall under. The other sports also had an opportunity to submit nominees but Peirsol was unanimously supported as the Athlete nominee from the United States.
This doesn't ensure that Aaron will be named a member of the FINA Commission but I have a hard time coming up with a more universally liked aquatics athlete. He is smart, articulate and well aware of the current state of International swimming and I am excited for his voice to be heard at that level on this and many other topics.
“Nice spelling Coward....even with it written above. Another intelligent responder.
AND, responding to below....everyone believes Speedo and FINA are together, not anything new. Leonard goes back and forth carefully because what he really means is, "if we do away with certain material, or change the rules too drastically and/or too fast...ALL suit companies (speedo or not) will sue us for every last penny. It is not that FINA doesn't want to hurt companies, it is that they don't want to finish themselves off.”
It's It is so frustrating.
AND, responding to below....everyone believes Speedo and FINA are together, not anything new. Leonard goes back and forth carefully because what he really means is, "if we do away with certain material, or change the rules too drastically and/or too fast...ALL suit companies (speedo or not) will sue us for every last penny. It is not that FINA doesn't want to hurt companies, it is that they don't want to finish themselves off.
John: “Because being unfair to the companies who have already got lots of product out there that they have already manufactured. This is not the suit companies fault…that we have this sort of stirring about in the swimming community. They’re just doing what they’re supposed to do which is make money for their stockholders and conform to the rules that exist at the time.
Garrett: “You say that you don’t want to hurt the suit companies who are using permeable or non-permeable material. What about the suit companies who may or may not have understood the air trapping part of it?
John: “FINA is not in the business of either helping companies or hurting companies. They should be in the business of setting the appropriate rules, clear, simple, that are easily followed.”
Does anyone else not see the paradox of this statement. John basically says FINA doesn't want to harm companies who have money invested in these suits (i.e. Speedo), yet he uses the statement that FINA will not help or hurt companies and that they're "rule settes" as justification for harming other "non-Speedo" companies...
Does he not in a roundabout way imply that maybe people are right, that there is a Speedo bias within FINA?
“Did anyone who commented below even watch the video? It looks more like they just saw the topic and posted a comment. I thought the video was quite informative and stuck mostly to factual info with good support.
As for his personal view on Masters and tech suits...I agree they are different. Masters swimmers aren't fighting for scholarship dollars or a big sponsorship. I would compare it to middle age guys switching from baseball to softball. It is a great way to stay active and have fun but more laid back and relaxed rules than true baseball.”
As for his personal view on Masters and tech suits...I agree they are different. Masters swimmers aren't fighting for scholarship dollars or a big sponsorship. I would compare it to middle age guys switching from baseball to softball. It is a great way to stay active and have fun but more laid back and relaxed rules than true baseball.
Great job Garrett. You single-handedly showed the bs involved here. Thank you John for giving us conspiracy-theorists our proof. Absolutely unbelievable.
Also, where did John and the other members of the committee draw the conclusion that the majority of people want a rollback? How do we know a majority of athletes wanted this when not one current competitive athlete was included in the proceedings?
"Fina is not in the business of helping or hurting companies"? Didn't he just give a spiel about not wanting to hurt companies (ie speedo) by not letting them sell their stock of suits that they spent so much money on?
Argggghhhhhh!!!! I hope that when B70 takes FINA to court, they use this video as evidence.